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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #11  
Old 08-11-2017, 04:13 PM
Kioma Kioma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
Religion is about power and control. The creation of orthodox Christianity by Constantine in the 3rd century is a good example. It was seen as another arm of control over an increasingly sprawling and uncontrollable Roman empire.

Conflicts between religions occur because they're founded by people who come into power. It's the power that's in conflict.

Operationally religions must be imposed on populations to be effective, achieved by coming up with a doctrine - the scriptures, the Holy Book - and inculcating them from birth. The imposing is about taking away individuals' responsibility for their spirituality; telling them what they must believe in and how to go about it. In some Holy Books like the Koran a follower's behaviour is closely regulated.
So it comes down to obeying the priests. If you don't you're heretic/apostate usually inviting punishments which were spectacular. The hope was to deter.

Most of these religions were intolerant and at times hostile. For some priceless and rather horrific examples look at the wars between Christendom and Islam; or those between African religions and Christendom during the slave centuries.

None of this fitted in with gnosticism or individual spiritual development. Some sects managed to preserve their work in clandestine ways like the alchemists and Africans in Europe and the USA.

So to me, spirituality has almost nothing to do with religion.

You could be spiritual to be religious but you're unlikely to be religious if you're individually spiritual.
Absolutely agree.

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  #12  
Old 09-11-2017, 12:39 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
Religion is about power and control. The creation of orthodox Christianity by Constantine in the 3rd century is a good example. It was seen as another arm of control over an increasingly sprawling and uncontrollable Roman empire.

Conflicts between religions occur because they're founded by people who come into power. It's the power that's in conflict.

Operationally religions must be imposed on populations to be effective, achieved by coming up with a doctrine - the scriptures, the Holy Book - and inculcating them from birth. The imposing is about taking away individuals' responsibility for their spirituality; telling them what they must believe in and how to go about it. In some Holy Books like the Koran a follower's behaviour is closely regulated.
So it comes down to obeying the priests. If you don't you're heretic/apostate usually inviting punishments which were spectacular. The hope was to deter.

Most of these religions were intolerant and at times hostile. For some priceless and rather horrific examples look at the wars between Christendom and Islam; or those between African religions and Christendom during the slave centuries.

None of this fitted in with gnosticism or individual spiritual development. Some sects managed to preserve their work in clandestine ways like the alchemists and Africans in Europe and the USA.

So to me, spirituality has almost nothing to do with religion.

You could be spiritual to be religious but you're unlikely to be religious if you're individually spiritual.

Hi Lorelyen,

I can agree with what you present in the sense when religion is misused or misrepresented. Used to maintain and control power.

Brings some further thoughts on this

Feel though not all religions or spiritual practices do this. I have not come across a war between covens, for example lol. Tribes have and had their ritual and offerings as well. Some were pretty violent, some are not.

I also, feel some groups may not establish themselves as a religion per se, but still promote a certain way one should be in order to be spiritual or develop oneself.

Some are beneficial and can hold merit, while others seem to be more interested in making a profit off others issues ,Perhaps it is just a side of human nature for some, not. sure.

Yes, there are some deeds that need to be reckoned with and abuses occur. Such is the lust for power, suppose.

Still I feel religion in its essence is spiritual teaching of sorts. Feel if one is expressing/living a spiritual way or belief, whether it be his/her own or something others may follow as well, it is religious in a way. Just my thinking on this. Feel can be an individual choice whether or not to express it.

I am aware of some of the conflicts that have and are occurring in the name of whatever it may be. It is a waste and to me does not truly represent faith, but as you state power and will add greed.

Seems just like any other kind of knowledge, it is in how it is used, IMO.

Thank you for your thoughts.
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  #13  
Old 09-11-2017, 01:52 AM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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All religion is to control and exert power? I doubt it.

Poison to release poison.

Raft used to cross the river.

etc.

There is not a tool in the world that can't be misused, or, applied properly.

Best not to generalize completely IMO.
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  #14  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:33 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blossomingtree
All religion is to control and exert power? I doubt it.

Poison to release poison.

Raft used to cross the river.

etc.

There is not a tool in the world that can't be misused, or, applied properly.

Best not to generalize completely IMO.


H blooming tree,

You bring up a good point.

Can agree best not to generalize.


There are so many religions out there, not just the what may the more well known ones. Atleast, where I live Even these seem to have their sects .

I don't feel all are into control and power, many am not familiar with or practice, so attempt not to clump all into one pile.

There are reflections in history of abuses and misrepresentations in which some religions and/or certain beliefs were used to manipulate power, IMO. This is not to condemn religion, but reflect upon caution to be considered in how it may be used or misused, as I see it.

There are religious groups who also do great deeds in helping the poor and homeless. Many find true comfort and a center in life through religious practice.
Which for me is also spiritual, whether done in an established building or out in nature.., in a group or alone.

I was raised in a Catholic household. My disagreements are in regards to some of the church policies, so feel it is hypicritical of me to attend and support the church.
Just what I work through with myself.

It does bring up some wondering and couriosity in regards to religion because it is so much a part of this human experience. Meaning in the sense of how many may interact with one another.

So, explore a bit different sides and realize it can be a personal area to enter for some.

Just expressing some of my outlooks.
Agree, like any tool depends how it is applied.

Thank you
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  #15  
Old 09-11-2017, 05:49 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Hi Lorelyen,

I can agree with what you present in the sense when religion is misused or misrepresented. Used to maintain and control power.

Brings some further thoughts on this

Feel though not all religions or spiritual practices do this. I have not come across a war between covens, for example lol. Tribes have and had their ritual and offerings as well. Some were pretty violent, some are not.

I also, feel some groups may not establish themselves as a religion per se, but still promote a certain way one should be in order to be spiritual or develop oneself.

Some are beneficial and can hold merit, while others seem to be more interested in making a profit off others issues ,Perhaps it is just a side of human nature for some, not. sure.

Yes, there are some deeds that need to be reckoned with and abuses occur. Such is the lust for power, suppose.

Still I feel religion in its essence is spiritual teaching of sorts. Feel if one is expressing/living a spiritual way or belief, whether it be his/her own or something others may follow as well, it is religious in a way. Just my thinking on this. Feel can be an individual choice whether or not to express it.

I am aware of some of the conflicts that have and are occurring in the name of whatever it may be. It is a waste and to me does not truly represent faith, but as you state power and will add greed.

Seems just like any other kind of knowledge, it is in how it is used, IMO.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Y'know, you have to take the good with the bad, but most of all, be able to see the structure of it, and seeing as people are people foremost, their various religious identities are mere asides. However, the immense importance afforded to these 'named things' is disproportionate, and we start to see significant problems arising from that.
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  #16  
Old 09-11-2017, 05:53 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
Religion is about power and control. The creation of orthodox Christianity by Constantine in the 3rd century is a good example. It was seen as another arm of control over an increasingly sprawling and uncontrollable Roman empire.

Conflicts between religions occur because they're founded by people who come into power. It's the power that's in conflict.

Operationally religions must be imposed on populations to be effective, achieved by coming up with a doctrine - the scriptures, the Holy Book - and inculcating them from birth. The imposing is about taking away individuals' responsibility for their spirituality; telling them what they must believe in and how to go about it. In some Holy Books like the Koran a follower's behaviour is closely regulated.
So it comes down to obeying the priests. If you don't you're heretic/apostate usually inviting punishments which were spectacular. The hope was to deter.

Most of these religions were intolerant and at times hostile. For some priceless and rather horrific examples look at the wars between Christendom and Islam; or those between African religions and Christendom during the slave centuries.

None of this fitted in with gnosticism or individual spiritual development. Some sects managed to preserve their work in clandestine ways like the alchemists and Africans in Europe and the USA.

So to me, spirituality has almost nothing to do with religion.

You could be spiritual to be religious but you're unlikely to be religious if you're individually spiritual.

Yes - essentially, there is no need for anyone to adhere to imposed religious preconceptions, and it is important to think freely and be self-determining, and not succumb to mindless obedience.
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  #17  
Old 09-11-2017, 07:43 AM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Yes - essentially, there is no need for anyone to adhere to imposed religious preconceptions, and it is important to think freely and be self-determining, and not succumb to mindless obedience.

That may be the case these days but in former times things weren't quite as simple. People don't study history so they can't spot the dangers prevailing today in certain "faiths". We no longer burn witches or flail recalcitrant slaves because most religions have lost their power. But there remain faiths that if they have their way will stamp on an individual's right to their personal spiritual development. (I see this happening in the UK and Europe, anyway). With the world in its current state it's impossible to guarantee there'll be no repeat of the religious past.

The point is that religion is a package deal that takes over an individual's spirituality; it becomes responsible for it, limiting that individual's chance of self development. Even the occult has its religious tendencies.

The aim is that one has to follow the doctrine - or one isn't part of that religion. The follower obeys the creed. That's how it is.
Sure, there are breakaways from the hub of most faiths but they are no less religious. You don't own your spirituality while you're "believing in" someone else's doctrine.

I appreciate that it's difficult for many to comprehend. Most of us were brought up from birth with some kind of "faith" and shaking that off can be a problem. Such shaking off usually happens when an alternative is presented prompting an individual to question the whole edifice of religion.
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  #18  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:47 AM
shoni7510 shoni7510 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
That may be the case these days but in former times things weren't quite as simple. People don't study history so they can't spot the dangers prevailing today in certain "faiths". We no longer burn witches or flail recalcitrant slaves because most religions have lost their power. But there remain faiths that if they have their way will stamp on an individual's right to their personal spiritual development. (I see this happening in the UK and Europe, anyway). With the world in its current state it's impossible to guarantee there'll be no repeat of the religious past.

The point is that religion is a package deal that takes over an individual's spirituality; it becomes responsible for it, limiting that individual's chance of self development. Even the occult has its religious tendencies.

The aim is that one has to follow the doctrine - or one isn't part of that religion. The follower obeys the creed. That's how it is.
Sure, there are breakaways from the hub of most faiths but they are no less religious. You don't own your spirituality while you're "believing in" someone else's doctrine.

I appreciate that it's difficult for many to comprehend. Most of us were brought up from birth with some kind of "faith" and shaking that off can be a problem. Such shaking off usually happens when an alternative is presented prompting an individual to question the whole edifice of religion.

I largely agree with this view. Religion seems to serve as a foundation to our spirituality. At a certain stage in life when a person has been exposed to more information and experiences, they break free from religion and follow their own individual spirituality path. Some people never reach this stage and so they continue with religion until the end.
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  #19  
Old 09-11-2017, 10:39 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
That may be the case these days but in former times things weren't quite as simple. People don't study history so they can't spot the dangers prevailing today in certain "faiths". We no longer burn witches or flail recalcitrant slaves because most religions have lost their power. But there remain faiths that if they have their way will stamp on an individual's right to their personal spiritual development. (I see this happening in the UK and Europe, anyway). With the world in its current state it's impossible to guarantee there'll be no repeat of the religious past.

The point is that religion is a package deal that takes over an individual's spirituality; it becomes responsible for it, limiting that individual's chance of self development. Even the occult has its religious tendencies.

The aim is that one has to follow the doctrine - or one isn't part of that religion. The follower obeys the creed. That's how it is.
Sure, there are breakaways from the hub of most faiths but they are no less religious. You don't own your spirituality while you're "believing in" someone else's doctrine.

I appreciate that it's difficult for many to comprehend. Most of us were brought up from birth with some kind of "faith" and shaking that off can be a problem. Such shaking off usually happens when an alternative is presented prompting an individual to question the whole edifice of religion.

I think basically, the more importance religious thought is given the more problematic it becomes, so the dilemma is, if religious thought was given little to no importance, there would be no religion - which would be very distressing to religious folk because of the inherent identity crisis that reveals. This is not to disregard the importance of thought as a process, but to question if it is prudent to try to preserve thought as a 'thing'? I think the issue is the belief that the thought is true, and therefore important, but there is very fine line, if there is one at all, between 'spreading knowledge' and exercising power, for the mission to convert people to the 'faith' is the endeavour to convince and thereby influence others. This is indeed antithetical to free thought, and I suggest a more productive approach would be to support others on their spiritual discovery rather than convince them that you are right.
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  #20  
Old 09-11-2017, 12:26 PM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
..........This is indeed antithetical to free thought, and I suggest a more productive approach would be to support others on their spiritual discovery rather than convince them that you are right.

True indeed however my views were in response to the position set out in the opening post.
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