encouraging accidental suicide

Originally Posted by Trieah

Fair enough. Though now I wonder which is greater, the amount of times you've seen people encouraging it, or the amount of times you've seen people discouraging it?

To be honest, I've come across more people who actually discourage suicidal tendencies in others, then I have seen people actually encourage it. So perhaps my blindside on this matter is that I don't see this as such an out of control subject as it may sound, since I rarely come across that kind of situation. But, that is not to say that the concerns being brought up are unfounded.

And now, with the added information from Lady Terra, I have to wonder if this "encouragement" isn't just a gross misunderstanding by other people, and the person who actually said such things never intended it to be taken that way. It's not unlike all the other post on this message board where someone asks a question about something they experienced, and gets back a whole slew of diverse opinions from other people who are going by their own personal interpretation of what that other person's experience was.

How many times have we seen people asking questions about the conduct of their spirit guide, only to be told anything between "It's a perfectly legitimate thing for a spirit guide to do" to "It's an outrageous thing for a spirit guide to do, and therefore it must be something evil out to fool you"? How many times have we seen mini arguments pop up over a complete misunderstanding of what someone actually meant, after someone else took offense by assuming the very worst of that person? How does one know for sure that other person only had the best of intentions in mind? How does one convince others that they've only been misunderstood in their meaning? Or how can they even further explain themselves at all if they are instantly banned?

Yes, it is a touchy subject indeed. All of it.



You're absolutely right. It doesn't make it right. And those people who encouraged it used very poor judgment. And if that person actually did jump to their death, that's something those who were only joking are going to have to live with. Assuming they were only joking around in the first place, and didn't really want to see someone kill them self. Sadly enough, there really are people so desensitized out in this world who actually enjoy that sort of thing. Does make me wonder just how much they would still enjoy it, if it happened to someone they actually cared about though.

On the morning of November 21, 1980, 85 people died and more than 700 were injured as a result of a fire at the MGM Grand Hotel. This was the second largest life-loss hotel fire in United States history. I watched as people jumped to there deaths then in Los Angeles I watched 7 suicides jumping from buildings. Not at same time through out my life.
These suicides I watched in aww when I heard people chanting to jump.
I can honestly say the only people who were discouraging it was emt's and police. So I can safely say more encouraged because the rest of the people were standing in shock and aww.

I'm so sorry you had to witness such deplorable actions -sigh- Sometimes this world really can be such a terrible place to live in.

But we have to remember that it can also be a beautiful place to live as well. And I just wish I could take back my part in helping to create such a painful environment

Originally Posted by Trieah

Well it does seem like we're splitting hairs on this subject But if a person is already voicing their thoughts about killing them self deliberately, wouldn't anyone else who was voicing their thoughts in favor of such behavior, be more or less collaborating with the idea, and not truly being the encouraging force behind discussing the act of self murder, since the person who made the favorable remarks was not the one who inspired the conversation in the first place?

Yes, suggesting suicide is not something that i have seen on this website or an issue that i am addressing, im sure we all would have known about that if i did

Originally Posted by Trieah

So in this new code of conduct we're trying to hash out, are we discouraging encouragement, or discouraging collaboration?

Both id say. Ill give you an example to try make this clearer.

Vulnerable member: Im tired of this material existance and am considering living a life that will more than likely lead to an early death. I believe Heaven is so much nicer and I really feel strongly about making changes and taking more calculated risks and if i die as a result of them then so be it. My friends dont understand and they tell me to focus on living and making a future for myself.
Im leaving for the desert tomorrow without water. If i make it out the other end alive then i am meant to live, if i die i am ready for that and ill accept it is my time to go home to the heaven i have seen in my meditations.

Discourager: Life is beautiful and you have been sent here to live. Dont throw your life away it is precious.

Collaborator: I understand where you are coming from and have had similar thoughts of doing the same myself.

Encourager: I understand where you are coming from and have had similar thought of doing the same myself. I have seen heaven the same way you have and it is true, it is beautifuland they accept everyone even those that commit suicide. You are doing the right thing afterall its your life and dont let anyone steer you away from your goal.

Suicidal observer: Ive had enough of life and would like to go home but i have been taught i will go to hell and not be with the ones i have loved and lost. If two people have seen the same thing then maybe its ok to take my life afterall but i dont have time to waste taking risks.

Seeker of truth: OMG Suicidal observer may be very impressionable, vulnerable and not of stable mind at this his lowest time of life. His profile says he is 55 but he speaks as though he is 14. Is the info he chose to elect correct? What can i do so suicidal observer understands that what others have seen in their minds may not be real and they may headed toward an unknown fate. Their family members will be distraught.
OK, First matters first... make sure vulnerable member has thought this through and will accept help if they are offered it out in the desert. What can i do to get to vilnerable member before he gets to the desert. Assure suicidal observer that there are other ways to deal with suicidal thoughts.
Second matter, find a way so that we may avoid this scenario being repeated in the future and take steps to have it considered by the admin.



If we act as the collaborator with intention to discourage i am in favour of that though if we act as collaborator with intent to encourage then i am opposed.

I am opposed to the encourager in any way shape or form as she may be the deciding factor in vulnerable member riding the coach to the desert.

I am opposed to the encourager in any way shape or form as she may have just unknowingly assisted Suicidal observer in making the decision to end her life based on other peoples spiritual ideas that are not proven as factual truth.

To answer your question i have considered other peoples concepts that i have read on forums and applied them to my life to see how they sit with me. Fortunately I couldnt commit suicide, i love my friends, family, wife and kids too much to put them through that. The only thing that i fear about death is maybe having to watch them suffer and not be able to give them a hug. The devil, hell, god and heaven?... i can deal with those concepts when i pass over and find out what the real truth is about the afterlife, which i hope isnt anytime soon.

Thank you also Trieah, for your kind words. Its all good and feel free to challenge me anytime

Originally Posted by Occultist

On the morning of November 21, 1980, 85 people died and more than 700 were injured as a result of a fire at the MGM Grand Hotel. This was the second largest life-loss hotel fire in United States history. I watched as people jumped to there deaths then in Los Angeles I watched 7 suicides jumping from buildings. Not at same time through out my life.
These suicides I watched in aww when I heard people chanting to jump.
I can honestly say the only people who were discouraging it was emt's and police. So I can safely say more encouraged because the rest of the people were standing in shock and aww.

Geez occultist, i cant even watch the news and cant imagine what you have experienced. Im so sorry you had to see that.

I believe I was put in those places to see suicide and death and horror for a reason. My sisters death at age nine and so on.
I do have ptsd not only because of being witness to this but because of child abuse and alot of other things ontop. Because of this mostly all my friends are Vets or still over seas in afganistan. I always am very aware when I go out to the grocer or to a Movie if I am in a restaurant I want to sit by the nearest exit. I know I need exorcise but I hate walking or doing cordio by myself so I recently baught a 7w old Black German Sheperd my friend who is a Marine just served 8 yrs named him Jethro Gibbs. Mark Harmon's charactor on NCIS
My friend said now I will have a little Marine around to walk with me when he cannot :-) Me and my Marine friend are actually healing each other.
He still sleeps with a 9mm loaded on the nightstand beside him and a Kbar beside the bed where he can grab it. Some how this is comforting to me I feel safer and he is starting to allow people slowly to understand him and love him and know he is not the same person he was when he left. We have both been through hell and somehow that makes sence.

Originally Posted by res

Collaborator: I understand where you are coming from and have had similar thoughts of doing the same myself.

Technically your example of a Collaborator is more likely to be only someone who is in agreement with the Vulnerable member, but had not shown any true collaboration with the person.

This would be a better example of what a Collaborator would be:

Vulnerable member: Im tired of this material existance and am considering living a life that will more than likely lead to an early death. I believe Heaven is so much nicer and I really feel strongly about making changes and taking more calculated risks and if i die as a result of them then so be it. My friends dont understand and they tell me to focus on living and making a future for myself.
Im leaving for the desert tomorrow without water. If i make it out the other end alive then i am meant to live, if i die i am ready for that and ill accept it is my time to go home to the heaven i have seen in my meditations.

Collaborator: You know what, you're right. I've been wanting to end my life for a while now too. Why don't we meet up some place and we'll both go out into the desert without water. Better yet, why don't we just rent a car and have a few drinks while driving up some winding mountain road with narrow lanes. That would be faster.

Originally Posted by Occultist

I believe I was put in those places to see suicide and death and horror for a reason. My sisters death at age nine and so on.
I do have ptsd not only because of being witness to this but because of child abuse and alot of other things ontop. Because of this mostly all my friends are Vets or still over seas in afganistan. I always am very aware when I go out to the grocer or to a Movie if I am in a restaurant I want to sit by the nearest exit. I know I need exorcise but I hate walking or doing cordio by myself so I recently baught a 7w old Black German Sheperd my friend who is a Marine just served 8 yrs named him Jethro Gibbs. Mark Harmon's charactor on NCIS
My friend said now I will have a little Marine around to walk with me when he cannot :-) Me and my Marine friend are actually healing each other.
He still sleeps with a 9mm loaded on the nightstand beside him and a Kbar beside the bed where he can grab it. Some how this is comforting to me I feel safer and he is starting to allow people slowly to understand him and love him and know he is not the same person he was when he left. We have both been through hell and somehow that makes sence.

Such a cute little puppy. I'm sure he'll be a great companion for you.

I do understand about being put into certain situations for a reason. I too had endured all kinds of abuse from parents, kids, strangers, and even negative spirits, for over half my life. Can't really say that I have post traumatic stress disorder though, but I do get into depressive moods at time. But when I look back at all the things that I've been through in this lifetime, it seems to have been leading up to me being strong enough to deal with all the darkness that I deal with in helping lost souls and negative entities cross over into the Light. I know there's a lot of other people out there who do this same kind of thing, but for the most part, even they don't want to touch the really bad cases like I do. But I definitely don't blame them, because it can be quite dangerous.

It seems that it doesnt matter what any of us think on the subject according to the law, unless someone considers themselves above it and is ready to accept the consequences:

Assisted suicideMain article: Assisted suicide
In many jurisdictions it is a crime to assist others, directly or indirectly, in taking their own lives. In some jurisdictions, it is also illegal to encourage them to do so. Sometimes an exception applies for physician assisted suicide (PAS), under strict conditions.

Laws in individual jurisdictions
Australia (Victoria)
In the Australian state of Victoria, while suicide itself is no longer a crime, a survivor of a suicide pact can be charged with manslaughter. Also, it is a crime to counsel, incite, or aid and abet another in attempting to commit suicide, and the law explicitly allows any person to use "such force as may reasonably be necessary" to prevent another from committing suicide.
India
In India, attempted suicide is an offence punishable under Section 309 of the Indian Penal Code. Section 309 reads thus: Attempt to commit suicide. "Whoever attempts to commit suicide and does any act towards the commission of such offence, shall be punished with simple imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year or with fine, or with both."
A Division Bench of the Supreme Court of India in P. Rathinam v. Union of India (AIR 1994 SC 1844) held that the right to live of which Article 21 speaks of can be said to bring in its trail the right not to live a forced life, and therefore, section 309 violates Article 21. This decision was, however, subsequently overruled in Gian Kaur v. State of Punjab (AIR 1996 SC 946) by a Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court, holding that Article 21 could not be construed to include within it the ‘right to die’ as a part of the fundamental right guaranteed therein; therefore, it was ruled that it could not be validly stated that section 309 is violative of Article 21.[4]
In 2008 the Law Commission of India submitted a review to the government to repeal section 309. The Law Commission said "The Supreme Court in Gian Kaur focused on constitutionality of section 309. It did not go into the wisdom of retaining or continuing the same in the statute." The Commission has resolved to recommend to the Government to initiate steps for repeal of the anachronistic law contained in section 309, IPC, which would relieve the distressed of his suffering. In India, suicide is above "world-rate".
Ireland
Attempted suicide is not a criminal offence in Ireland and under Irish law self-harm is not generally seen as a form of attempted suicide. Assisted suicide and euthanasia are, however, illegal.

Netherlands
In the Netherlands, being present and giving moral support during someone's suicide is not a crime; neither is supplying general information on suicide techniques. However, it is a crime to participate in the preparation for or execution of a suicide, including supplying lethal means or instruction in their use. (Physician-assisted suicide may be an exception. See Euthanasia in the Netherlands.)

North Korea
North Korea has a peculiar deterrent for suicides. Although law cannot punish a dead person, in North Korea relatives of a criminal (including a suicide victim) might be penalized, as a form of collective punishment.

Russian Federation
In Russia, inciting someone to suicide by threats, cruel treatment, or systematic humiliation is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. (Article 110 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation)

Singapore
In Singapore, a person who attempts to commit suicide can be imprisoned for up to one year.

United Kingdom
England and Wales
See also: Felo de se
Laws against suicide (and attempted suicide) prevailed in English common law until 1961. English law perceived suicide as an immoral, criminal offence against God and also against the King.[5] It first became illegal in the 13th century.[6] Until 1822, in fact, the possessions of somebody who committed suicide could even be forfeited to the Crown.[7]
Suicide ceased to be an offence with the passing of the Suicide Act 1961; the same Act makes it an offence to assist in a suicide. Whilst the act of suicide is lawful, the consequences of committing suicide might turn an individual event into an unlawful act, as in the case of Reeves v Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis [2000] 1 AC 360,[8] where a man in police custody hanged himself and was held equally liable with the police (a cell door defect enabled the hanging) for the loss suffered by his widow; the practical effect was to reduce the police damages liability by 50%. In 2009, the House of Lords ruled that the law concerning the treatment of people who accompanied those who committed assisted suicide was unclear, following Debbie Purdy's case that this lack of clarity was a breach of her human rights. (In her case, as a sufferer from multiple sclerosis, she wanted to know whether her husband would be prosecuted for accompanying her abroad where she may eventually wish to commit assisted suicide, if her illness progressed.) As a result, this law is expected to be revised.[9]

Scotland
There was no legislation on this topic until 1961 when the Suicide Act was passed. Suicide is not currently an offence under Scots Law. However, the offence of attempting suicide is a Breach of the peace. A person who assists a suicide might be charged with murder, culpable homicide, or no offense depending upon the facts of each case.

United States
Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states lacked laws against suicide.[10] By the late 1980s, thirty of the fifty states had no laws against suicide or suicide attempts but every state had laws declaring it to be felony to aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide.[11] By the early 1990s only two states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification.[citation needed] In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.)[citation needed] As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the late suicidal person's family in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded monetary damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[12] Some American legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, former President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[13]
Physician-assisted suicide is legal in some states.[14] For the terminally ill, it is legal in the state of Oregon under the Oregon Death with Dignity Act. In Washington state, it became legal in 2009, when a law modeled after the Oregon act, the Washington Death with Dignity Act was passed. A patient must be diagnosed as having less than six months to live, be of sound mind, make a request orally and in writing, have it approved by two different doctors, then wait 15 days and make the request again. A doctor may prescribe a lethal dose but may not administer it.[15]
In many jurisdictions, medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment. See Code 5150 for example.

Originally Posted by Trieah

Technically your example of a Collaborator is more likely to be only someone who is in agreement with the Vulnerable member, but had not shown any true collaboration with the person.

This would be a better example of what a Collaborator would be:

Vulnerable member: Im tired of this material existance and am considering living a life that will more than likely lead to an early death. I believe Heaven is so much nicer and I really feel strongly about making changes and taking more calculated risks and if i die as a result of them then so be it. My friends dont understand and they tell me to focus on living and making a future for myself.
Im leaving for the desert tomorrow without water. If i make it out the other end alive then i am meant to live, if i die i am ready for that and ill accept it is my time to go home to the heaven i have seen in my meditations.

Collaborator: You know what, you're right. I've been wanting to end my life for a while now too. Why don't we meet up some place and we'll both go out into the desert without water. Better yet, why don't we just rent a car and have a few drinks while driving up some winding mountain road with narrow lanes. That would be faster.

After considering the laws of the many durisdictions as written in the previous thread has your stance on assisted suicide within the forums of SF changed at all Trieah?

My kids would eat that puppy up occulstist You and your friend have been dealt a rough hand and if there is anything i can do to assist the healing please let me know!

Originally Posted by res

After considering the laws of the many durisdictions as written in the previous thread has your stance on assisted suicide within the forums of SF changed at all Trieah?

Not really. I actually looked up the laws on assisted suicide the other day. I still think it's immoral to allow someone to suffer excruciating pain for how ever long it takes for them to finally die on their own. I do remember all the hoopla about assisted suicide years ago when Dr. Kevorkian was helping so many elderly people die with their dignity in tacked, before they became drooling burdens who couldn't even keep from peeing or pooping in their beds all the time. Or were just too tired of being in such physical pain, waiting for the months to roll by before they finally died.

Tell me, what is more humane, the medical industry purposely starving and dehydrating the elderly people who have gone comatose with no hope for recovery, for how ever long it takes for them to finally die? Or giving them a lethal injection so they can go in peace and won't have to endure going through that starvation/dehydration period?

I don't get it. Why is it ok in so many places to use the death sentence in prisons for the people that society hates and labels as criminals. But it is not ok to assist in the "premature" death of our beloved elderly, even when they're so tired of waiting around just to die.