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Originally Posted by Greenslade
Hi there 7L
That too, but it also showed me the limits of my own consciousness and while I can go banging on about consciousness in this forum, 'out there' it's a very different kettle of fish completely.
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Hey there GS...we are getting into some interesting aspects so I'll just try to stick to what strikes me...OK, on the above, what strikes me is that I have never had too much of a problem recognising and accepting the humanity of others, even the full humanity. It's not always pretty, aspects of it may somewhat repulse me or leave me underwhelmed, but I can see the fullness of it and there is usually some good somewhere in there at any given time. But this understanding requires focus and some level of basic psychic awareness and penetration or interbeing with others and with the collective. Sometimes it's the collective you essentially stay with energetically when the individual is hostile or aggressive, so that you can care for yourself whilst still keeping their basic humanity in mind.
But this is not a skill that everyone has nor has tended to or developed. Particularly if privileged, it is really down to the individual as to whether they stretch for others and accord them equal worth. As human society and culture at present will not require that of them.
So the civilising and humanising skill of seeing the basic humanity of others is something that is more commonly a feature or silver lining of distance from centre. And that is yet another reason that, in general, hierarchies are bad news, particularly deep and narrow ones.
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In Jung's Allegory of the Alchemists and the Philosophers' Stone it's where we find the Prima Materia, or the stuff from which all else is made. Often the darkness has been my only sanctuary.
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It is indeed the primordial stuff, the stuff of pure potentiality.
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But that would completely spoil the discussion on ultimate reality so let's keep it hushed, shall we?
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I think one day (in some more realised and balanced place) there will be less talk of the ills of the body and the limits of physicality, because our bodies will better reflect the integrity of our loving consciousness as a people. This is still a work in process. But once that begins to occur, the holistic perspective will make ever more sense.
A lot of this struggle to accept the fullness of what is and of what we are, without duality, will come not from the physical aspects -- which may see great improvement one day fairly soon -- but will be located in the struggle to master the endlessly addictive nature of the "7 deadly sins", which tend toward infinity and can never be appeased or satisfied in the physical realm. There will be a long road to acceptance IMO of the fact that the lion's share of these things involve a psychological and spiritual core with physical feedbacks and interactions...that it ultimately will require hard choices taken daily and loads of cultural and community level supports. I believe the abuse victims and various addiction support groups have probably long since realised this. Thus, the obstacles to realisation (broadly and specifically) will first require we address many social ills and injustices as a collective but regarding desire and addiction, it will ultimately still come down to personal responsibility and personal choices taken every day. Conscious choices to treat others with regard and respect, and to treat their highest good equally to own's own -- never less than.
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It certainly seems that way. I've been surprised of late with what's been in the newspapers in that people are more ready to forgive and that's been reported in various articles. When it's more apparent in the mainstream media there's something going on. There seems to be a general feeling of it coming through too.
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I think it's part of the larger trend toward transparency in all things. As more comes to the fore, more can be consciously honoured and dealt with, or at least we can begin to do so.
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I understand where you're coming from but we have different perspectives on this one.
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Yes. I didn't say it would make things right or automatically produce reconciliation in any one lifetime. To truly do so would require many other things coming into being, such as a mutuality of ownership, of forgiveness, contrition and/or repentance where applicable, of engagement, and of striving to make amends and to reconcile.
This may not be possible in one lifetime if one party was murdered, LOL. Or if one party experienced a violent attack on close friends or family members...it may take more than one lifetime to deal with these things.
But if we have done what we can do on our end, then we are ready to go to the party (of awareness and engagement in authentic love). And the other folks can get there when they get there, even as we continue to reach out when/wherever. It's like our many guides and fellow travellers...they are already at the party but they still keep an eye on earth as we've largely not arrived or even got ready to leave the house.
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Not wanting to or not being able to remember much about Past Lives where you're weak and vulnerable tells you something about yourself too. There are times when things become just too painful to remember, even though they might have some relevance in this Life but resolution happens anyway, either because of us or despite us.
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I agree it's too painful at times to remember. But I also feel pretty strongly that it's not really resolved to a level we can ultimately live with or accept at the deepest levels until we CAN remember (the salient aspects) and until we have what we need, adequately. Such as we are able to be an active participant in taking key conscious choices. Of course, at this point, IMO we also need to be consciously walking the path (our own version of it) of authentic love.
So, we may be lagging for lifetimes w/regard to others w/whom we have much to resolve and heal, mutually. Whilst we beat, murder, use, or abuse them...perhaps whilst we also withhold forgiveness of these same folks or others because we are simply not there yet. Or maybe we'll be waiting round on them for ages. Whether either of these and the natural pain that would ensue all round is bearable and even meaningful and sublimely joyful nonetheless largely comes down to whether we choose authentic love toward self and others or not -- and
particularly whilst we are not receiving lovingkindness from equanimity from some others, hahaha. That's exactly where the pedal meets the metal. It all comes down to what are you willing to part with, or to have bent or broken? What are you willing to let anything and anyone take from you of yourself? (so to speak...as we come to realise no one can really ever do this in spirit over eternity to another, as eventually we will all find and recover ourselves) My answer is nothing. As a sentient, individuated aspect of What Is, I will be and have my personal sovereignty and agency of my own core being -- and I submit to Source and centre and none else
If, say, others are rat b*stards to you, if they are cruel or abuse your kindness or your trust, then you draw your boundaries and forgive when you are able...if there is no mutuality of change and growth in that particular situation -- or if it is not mutually adequate (say, I'll only beat you every other day -- how's that?), then you may move on without them or that resolution for now. That is the loving thing to do for YOU equally to THEM. And you take heart that you are doing all you can for this situation whilst balancing your personal needs within the all-encompassing thread of What Is.
There is simply no forcing reconciliation or healing in spirit simply because folks have the wacky idea here and now that power or force in the waking world amounts to jack poo. Or because they are lazy and they want your compliance now without consideration of your mutual right to truth in love. That is a very primitive and illusory perspective, and it falls away in the face of the mutual humanity and presence of fellow souls in spirit -- who are also embodied here on earth, many of them.
Things don't seem to come together all round otherwise, no matter which lifetime. Many, many times, I am reminded of MLK's saying "We don't get there, till we all get there." One of the wisest, deepest sayings and true on so many, many levels we are still unpacking. Regarding reconciliation, all parties have to "get there" in that they have all owned, addressed, redressed, and properly sought to reach out and make amends in authentic love. Not my way or highway (or sod ye one and all), but rather a mutuality of regard and consideration. Truth in love. Lovingkindness from equanimity.
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I think we're just too quick to put human moralities and judgements on things when we should have let them go a long time ago. We do so like our baggage sometimes.
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I forget exactly what this was on but in general, I agree. It seems too many are looking to judge and dismiss others on the barest of pretences (high crimes and misdemeanours and the like aside, LOL). When for many things, we simply require a much deeper knowledge of the person, their history, their burdens and their character.
If a person routinely has casual sex without love and are mature adults in age, we may not trust them in that context. However, that doesn't mean that we have the right to pass judgment, simply because they may have had a poor cultural heritage and few to no good role models in their formative years. That is essentially what has happened to a large part of humanity in the modern era. So we may withdraw from interaction from a factual basis but that is not the same as pinning the weight or bulk of the burden for an entire culture on any one individual -- which is misguided. Even whilst it is on each of us to take ownership for our own lives, it requires a fairly extensive bit of maturity and awareness to realise the depth of the damage inflicted, the sheer unsustainability of rampant utilitarianism, and the pervasive, toxic guidance one has received since birth via the "mainstream cultural paradigm". So the reality is, most will put forth some resistance to accepting the full ramifications of this truth and this reality...simplistically, it's akin to that idea of having lived a lie -- you and many millions of others -- whilst the hieararchy and the corporate elite have cynically perpetrated it upon ye in full awareness. Understandably, it's a tough thing to swallow.
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Frankly I don't think that's going to happen. It seems to come in cycles and the same old themes are still with us when they should have worked themselves out. I can't help but wonder what Jesus might say if he was walking in our midst today. We're still struggling with the basics of his teachings. The energetic critical mass is not in the favour of the good guys whichever angle you view it from. There's probably as much chance of someone pushing the button as there is that we won't need rules any more. Perhaps perfection is just another word for stagnation.
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Hahaha...Jesus would say you folks have not yet learnt some of my most basic lessons, and it's largely because you're actively resisting them.
As to the the rest, we are in transition for certain. But it is possible to make meaningful improvements without stagnation or descent into chaos. Again, it's all down to conscious choice and engagement, and to taking those choices over and over again.
We have to accept that the struggle is what is. It is our path. It's Jacob's ladder writ large and much of it is going to play out amongst one another, as well as within ourselves. The catholic church is a very easy symbol of this struggle of men to discipline and productively channel urges whilst sitting at the apex (or among the apex hiearchy) of society.
Men in particular are hugely vulnerable and challenged regarding desire and discipline, without the stalwart support of culture, one another, and women of character -- which in an ethically impoverished and underdeveloped culture means women of deep spiritual and ethical strength. Without these things, men fall vastly short of attaining the fullness of their humanity -- lovingkindness and equanimity for humanity at large and also for individuals. IMO women need a far greater sensitivity to men's weaknesses, but most simply are not aware. One of most women's great failings is that they know very little of the humanity of men and men on their part often hide their weaknesses so that they can forage for sex or power. This reflects a fear-based perspective on men's part, encouraging them to take and to prey on others. Yet if women are not fully equal and independent, many also operate from a fear-based or scarcity-based perspective, because that is what the world presents to them as women. Any fear-based perspective will feed the imbalance.
Conversely, seeking to level the playing ground will tend to remove the real fears of the weak and the oppressed, which allow them to live their lives without codependency and playing to men's addictions and weaknesses. Otherwise, women (at the bottom of the hierarchy) may nonetheless unwittingly undermine men's humanity even as women experience social injustice and personal exploitation, since addicts and predators cannot realise the fullness of their being and then what alternatives have ye as women? Men can use social injustice to feed their insatiable urges and addictions, including use and abuse of women, which undermines the humanity of women. In both cases, our own humanity is also undermined by our own hand. If too deeply bent, it may not be salvageable in this lifetime as one's capacity for humanity may be (deeply) stunted.
IMO, healing occurs only when everyone has begun to step away from the lion's share of this situation, necessary to right humanity at the deepest levels individually and collectively. There's a reason why sex has always been married to the heart centre in all mystical wisdom traditions. Because to separate these things means that we simply cannot attain the fullness of our humanity. Very much a part of all that is that holistic reality that you & I touched on earlier. We are not just what we eat but also the choices we take.
The only positive way out IMO is for women to become equally empowered, such that they are strong enough to stand on their own and have time and reason to reflect and take ownership of their lives. Without desperation or need, women can attend to themselves and let men get clean & master themselves, i.e., discipline and channel their urges since most men have done since time immemorial. Once clean, men can step up and come forward as people and not as predators. It's really tragic to think that balancing might come about through authoritarian constraints and oppressing of women, such that they and the culture (at least in theory) are literally forced to hold men accountable for who they are and what they do, even with little to no real say in many senses (as in many 3rd world countries). We see bits of this mentale all too frequently now across many Western societies, as once more oppression and hierarchy and brutal prejudice seek to offer a ready "solution" to the gritty, real, concrete process of simply taking ownership and exercising discipline and honour at the individual and societal levels.
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And to create new space, because as long as we can keep talking we have a chance.
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Yes indeed -- and so per usual I've now got several tangents plucked out of my strange mind for further our convo
Peace & blessings
7L
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