Confusion about The Holy Spirit

[davidmartin]

Well, here is what the first Christian hymn book says, the Odes of Solomon
1st/2nd century, what they thought of the Spirit also symbolised by Water
these were found, about 100 years back and didn't get much notice, which says something!
Pure joy or Psalm-pendants as the scholars like to call them
Whatever or whoever the Holy Spirit is, it makes you write songs like these

My heart was pruned and its flower appeared, then grace sprang up in it, and my heart produced fruits for the Lord.
For the Most High circumcised me by His Holy Spirit, then He uncovered my inward being towards Him, and filled me with His love.
And His circumcising became my salvation, and I ran in the Way, in His peace, in the way of truth.
From the beginning until the end I received His knowledge.
And I was established upon the rock of truth, where He had set me.
And speaking waters touched my lips from the fountain of the Lord generously.
And so I drank and became intoxicated, from the living water that does not die.
And my intoxication did not cause ignorance, but I abandoned vanity,
And turned toward the Most High, my God, and was enriched by His favors.
And I rejected the folly cast upon the earth, and stripped it off and cast it from me.
And the Lord renewed me with His garment, and possessed me by His light.
And from above He gave me immortal rest, and I became like the land that blossoms and rejoices in its fruits.
And the Lord is like the sun upon the face of the land.
My eyes were enlightened, and my face received the dew;
And my breath was refreshed by the pleasant fragrance of the Lord.
And He took me to His Paradise, wherein is the wealth of the Lord's pleasure
I beheld blooming and fruit-bearing trees,
And self-grown was their crown.
Their branches were sprouting and their fruits were shining.
From an immortal land were their roots.
And a river of gladness was irrigating them,
And round about them in the land of eternal life.

[Ariaecheflame]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

It's that they were saying feelings are unreliable and scripture should be the sole source of authority in believers life, and although they didn't mention it, 'as interpreted by them' was implicit in the message.
As if the Pharisees weren't saying the same sort of thing...
Feelings and the soul and heart is the one place we get to experience any kind of divinity and they're raising objections. I'm not having it!
I don't think Jesus could stand it either, it's nice to feel your on the same page as him sometimes.

Just taking bite sized chunks here haha...
Today this quite resonated with me.

God was very analysed when I was growing up.
So for some time I learnt to model this annaylisis of God haha.

Being the creative that I am though... I have antenaea which feel into things and guide the ship, my mind has a role as the co -captain... lol... checking all the information on the map which feelings create. I dunno... that seems to be how I work.

Annaylisis is ok... the problem which arose in my church is the analysis was structured in fear... when the soul knows different and so there was in my experience always a mis - alignment.

Feelings are what made me leave the church and feelings are what drove the enlightenment bus haha.

Even when reading scripture... feelings have largely guided me to the deeper, symbolic meanings... thoughts may analyse but... ultimately it is the core feeling which is usually aligned to truth even if the mind misinterprets or simply cannot interpret in the first place what the soul feels and knows... you know haha?!!

I remember when I was a kid, quite young, ages 6 - 12, I largely seperated from my body and most of my reality I lived in God's love... I'd go to church with my Father and I'd always be confused as to why some angry minister was trying to make god into a monster to be feared - for every night for a number of years when I prayed I was completely loved and nurtured in that space... and the solution that God gave me to every problem in my life was love and forgiveness.

So feelings are what allowed me access to that lifeline - and without those feelings I'd have been lost.
It is a pity that some churches promote a fear of those feelings... they are not the enemy of the congregation member, they are the enemy of those who use power against others wellbeing.
It is what It is though... and strangely I get it haha.
None of this amounts to much right here and now haha... in relation to the title of this thread but... in saying that I'm sure that something more is stirring however subtly - an unfolding revelation of the very subtle variety haha.

Perhaps this is why my childhood church spoke very little about the Holy Spirit...
It was too hard to twist into a fearful dogma...
To be honest I highly doubt the church would even have the slightest access to Holy Spirit.
Lol... they built a damn wall around themselves.

The search goes on.

[davidmartin]

interesting thoughts Emerald one of my problems is struggling to turn mine into conversations with others. I'm still finding out that when other people say or believe something I think is wrong, it turns out that if they weren't like this they wouldn't have some other positive attributes that I like about them. (I'm not thinking of you here but someone else just musing!)

>To be honest I highly doubt the church would even have the slightest access to Holy Spirit. Lol... they built a damn wall around themselves.

I think this is the heart of the issue
You or me would run a mile from this now, and have strong feelings of the time we got caught up in it. But the Holy Spirit could be subtle and strange and not behave like us!

I tend to believe your rigid church did encounter the Holy Spirit, but didn't recognise it in order to fully embrace it. Hence lots of fear and confusion
That wall they built, sort of traps the Holy Spirit in like a dungeon or tower rather than keeps it out

But still the Spirit works in them and lets them do whatever they want, up until the point not even the Spirit can bear it any more
This angst mirrors our own experiences in church too, and the other way round if something joyful happens

Everything you experienced there I recon the Holy Spirit feels too, you weren't alone. There is a vulnerability as well as an awesome power to it which don't contradict each other. This only makes sense with the Holy Spirit as a person not a force so you know which camp I'm in there!

I'm sure the domain the Holy Spirit operates in most is feelings that helped you out when you needed it most after a sitting through sermons the Holy Spirit was forced to sit through as well. All this madness would be funny if it didn't actually cause real harm, still I do sometimes smile at the way it all seems to work.
this outlook makes me quite tolerant of most Christians even ones with fundamentalist make-up on cause somewhere the Holy Spirit is operating in them too...

[Ariaecheflame]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

interesting thoughts Emerald one of my problems is struggling to turn mine into conversations with others. I'm still finding out that when other people say or believe something I think is wrong, it turns out that if they weren't like this they wouldn't have some other positive attributes that I like about them. (I'm not thinking of you here but someone else just musing!)

>To be honest I highly doubt the church would even have the slightest access to Holy Spirit. Lol... they built a damn wall around themselves.

I think this is the heart of the issue
You or me would run a mile from this now, and have strong feelings of the time we got caught up in it. But the Holy Spirit could be subtle and strange and not behave like us!

I tend to believe your rigid church did encounter the Holy Spirit, but didn't recognise it in order to fully embrace it. Hence lots of fear and confusion
That wall they built, sort of traps the Holy Spirit in like a dungeon or tower rather than keeps it out

But still the Spirit works in them and lets them do whatever they want, up until the point not even the Spirit can bear it any more
This angst mirrors our own experiences in church too, and the other way round if something joyful happens

Everything you experienced there I recon the Holy Spirit feels too, you weren't alone. There is a vulnerability as well as an awesome power to it which don't contradict each other. This only makes sense with the Holy Spirit as a person not a force so you know which camp I'm in there!

I'm sure the domain the Holy Spirit operates in most is feelings that helped you out when you needed it most after a sitting through sermons the Holy Spirit was forced to sit through as well. All this madness would be funny if it didn't actually cause real harm, still I do sometimes smile at the way it all seems to work.
this outlook makes me quite tolerant of most Christians even ones with fundamentalist make-up on cause somewhere the Holy Spirit is operating in them too...

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by Holy spirit as a person vs as a force to be honest can it be both?! I've heard people say that the Holy Spirit moves within?!! Or something along those lines.


In reguards to the last paragraph that struck me quite a bit, never before had I thought about it like that. There was always a definite protective inner knowing as I sat through those sermons...

I think that I might be sort of getting somewhere with this now- many instances are coming back to me, haha -
Ok, so this is quite interesting and cool - as these memories come flooding back I am sort of remembering again -

[Nowayout]

The Holy Spirit looks for the Holy Spirits....

You worthy...

Has nothing to do with much ado about nothing....

Are you worth its efforts?

If you are, it comes.

It's not political, egotistical, capitalistic, nor blind.

[davidmartin]

protective inner knowing, sounds like the Holy Spirit to me!
protecting inner being too as well as mind?
hard to talk about this stuff. some say it 'rests' rather than moves, or does both but there's a sense of it resting or reclining within, over the heart protectively maybe. Fluttering is a word I heard couple of times in comparison to a dove.
Random curious quote from early church father Justin Martyr:
The Holy Spirit fluttered down upon Him, and a voice came out of the heavens 'You are My Son, this day I have begotten you'

Any way, the force vs person thing. Both? yes but wouldn't it have to be a gentle force a sweet one? cause it doesn't turn people to zombies at all, that's something else. hard to avoid personifying something so essentially divine, and putting limits on its attributes or ability to be. Although the Egyptians made Gods of cats and bed bugs, they didn't have a cat force. it just seems silly

Originally Posted by Nowayout

The Holy Spirit looks for the Holy Spirits....

You worthy...

Has nothing to do with much ado about nothing....

Are you worth its efforts?

If you are, it comes.

It's not political, egotistical, capitalistic, nor blind.

It searches for the good hearts--Many say-- i love my family and friends--so did Adolf. The Love of the covenant Jesus brought goes far beyond that kind of love. Few have it.

[jojo50]

Originally Posted by emeraldheart

I'm wondering what your religious background taught you about the holy spirit and also what are your own personal feelings and beliefs?

my belief is that Jehovah God's Holy Spirit isn't a being, but his Active force. or as i would say to people, his Power to make whatever he wants to happen, happen. MANY are taught to believe it's a third being, part of Jesus and Jehovah God. but here's the question i usually ask many, but NEVER receive an answer.

if Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit ,are as I've heard, "3 in one", or "three separate beings." then way wasn't "he" ,(the HS), mentioned here by Jesus? (Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour know no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father). Jesus showed that NO human, the Angels, and NOT even himself knew when the End would hit, he did said the Father would knew.

now!.. what happen with this third being? why wasn't "he" mentioned if "he" is a part of the Heavenly realm? everyone else were mentioned.
Jesus showed at (Matt.12:31,32), that man can speak ill against himself, and he's forgiven. but man speaks ill against the HS, he won't be forgiven. now, why wasn't God included since he's higher than any Heavenly being?

he was!, Jesus was basically saying. NO man is forgiven if he speaks ill against Jehovah God's Power! why?, because he's our Grand Creator, and NO ONE, either from Heaven or earth can match or touch him when it comes to what he can do. No ONE has the Power he has, or can have Power unless he gives it to them, even then they still couldn't touch him. peace

[Nowayout]

Originally Posted by kjw47

It searches for the good hearts--Many say-- i love my family and friends--so did Adolf. The Love of the covenant Jesus brought goes far beyond that kind of love. Few have it.

Are you worthy?

Love.. is Jesus, Jesus is about love.

If Adolf loved his family with a pure heart, then he is worthy regardless of his many other vises.. God, I pray for him as Jesus would.

And for you too, Kjw47, you put the letter before the spirit.

Can you truly love the way you are moved by these letters.

I love Jesus, and he knows it. Will he condemn my son who has his own agenda, but is a very good son!


Far more open to the love of the Christ, than some Starchy old Christians I have know.

[Ariaecheflame]

Well....

I have been writing and practicing a song - trying to find the right tune from a poem which my Mum wrote a few years ago.
I am going to surprise her for her birthday with a recording of me singing her song put to music and also gift a copy of the sheet music so that she can play it and sing it herself.

Well... anyway - the reason I mention it is because I want to do it in a way which honours her... her life, spirit.

I was praying the other day about this- how do I best honour my Mum and her art... her expression?... and then I was guided back to my question about the Holy Spirit...

I felt guided to play around with tunes for my Mum... while setting the sole intention of honouring her.

So I emptied myself of all my ego fears and judments and started to just sing with one intention: move out of my own way... let my intuition come through and something else-

An energy, a pressence - came through me as soon as I was empty enough of fears and judments to let go and allow it... and it was everything mentioned within my description earlier and it was also more.

Subtle it's pressence at first and then completely moving through me... as me, with me...

And that I guess is how I was shown... and how I remembered what I actually already know.