Finding a teacher.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

I have been misdirected into thinking we perceive our true nature and that there's nothing to do, but to follow our hearts. I've seen the suffering that can cause and have become weary of that notion. I understand it's allure, but also see it's pitfalls.

Now I am not saying we need to go and find a teacher to follow no matter what.
I am merely stating that if you need guidance. Find someone who does what you aspire to do and learn from them.

At the same time keep an eye out for false idols and fake teachers who may have a hidden personality based agenda.

Agreed.

BT

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Not sure if this can relate and i haven't read any of the other posts lol.
There is a song by Richard Thompson called Beeswing, The song speaks of a love affair which alas ends.

Here is the song,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HApy-Xoix-g.

So within this song there is one line which says, " Maybe that's the price you pay for the chains that you refuse ".. So this line speaks to me about the conformity or so called chains that we all refuse in our own ways to come under in order to break free. I Still struggle to wear 'those chains' but in my limited experience of it all I've often found that I've been scarred away from 'Teachers', 'Tradition' and rules because I believe those things to be 'chains' but funny enough I have also found out that these so called 'rules' turn out to be something completely different when viewed and experienced from the side of so called submission. So tis a paradox indeed. Obviously I don't necessarily relate any of this to so called psychopaths and to abusive situations, gatherings and teachers. Thanks for the chance to say something.

I meant to write you, JoeMc, you wrote something about an enlightened person once, and here's your answer: The thread that should not be named

Enlightenment is not just a word, it's a reality for some, but those words are not always used the same way. Would an enlightened person hurt so intentionally, ot be so self absorbed/self enarmored, that they don't even know what they are doing? I doubt it. This is the reason - to my mind - for genuine traditions and teachers/teachings. Other than that -

My perspective is do what you want, what you feel is right for you, what you are comfortable with. It's your life and what's important (in my opinion) is that you are true to yourself, true in your own heart and being .. happy, fulfilled.

Everyone has their own path and no path is better than anyone else's (I do favor personalities that are walking in Light and Love more fully though I admit - personal bias 'tis all ) - but we all have our karma and connections.

I agree with catsquotl in that if one seeks to master something though, of course Masters can be helpful and I think there is such a thing as genuine insights which can help those of us who are not as advanced (in understanding, just like a cook can learn from a more advanced cook - it's not a judgement, it's just a thing) (- and with the huge caveat: can one find a genuine teacher who has no sin in their heart i.e. they are human but they have broken the chains of ego to some degree that is meaningful and honest, until one is found, well at least we can encourage each other ) but what is valuable is that the person is happy, is true to themself. Then we can all be happy in true friendship and isn't that already great.

FWIW.

BT

[blossomingtree]

Was reading a blog of a long term Tibetan practitioner who I respect quite a lot.

Here are some of his entries about teachers:

The Teacher

I find that a lot of people are uncomfortable with the teacher student relation in Buddhism. Because we live in an egalitarian society, the idea that the teacher is higher than the student is suspect. The Buddhist idea is that the knowledge that the teacher gives is a gift. It is given with an unselfish motive and should be received with gratitude. This idea is not specific to Buddhism, you'll also find it in the martial arts. The teacher not only teaches verbally but serves as an example. The example fills the student with enthusiasm and spurs the student's practice. In this way the teacher serves as a living bridge to the practice.

[blossomingtree]

Only One Thought

You value critical thinking now because that's all you've got. And critical thinking is a fine tool and I don't mean to disparage it. But thinking rests on some assumptions about how the world is. Critical thinking is linguistic and all languages embody assumptions about the world. For example, the agent-action pattern is fundamental to English. All this makes it extremely difficult to overcome our delusions solely by means of critical thinking.

So we have meditation, zazen, or whatever you wish to call it. And there are teachers, roshis, senseis, and so forth. Now the catch is, since meditation is a tool that doesn't use critical thinking, critical thinking can't be totally conclusive in who is a good teacher.

And different teachers will say different things to try to lead their students to understand what can't be expressed in words.

What you call dogmatism is really is just the inability to fit what the teacher says into a conceptual scheme. Really, it's nothing different than when your parents told you, "When you grow up, you'll understand." Didn't you always hate that?

I'm not suggesting you suspend critical thinking. Trust shouldn't be given blindly, it's something that grows over a period of time. But some sort of trust in the teacher is necessary, absolutely necessary. Because the truth is simple and obvious and we've heard it all before. But without meditation practice and trust in the teacher you'll pass it right by.

Careless Hand

...........

[blossomingtree]

Ill Spoken Words

Time for another verse from the Thirty Seven Practices of a Bodhisattva. The next verse says:

Even if, in the midst of a public gathering, someone exposes faults and speaks ill of one, humbly paying homage to that person, perceiving him as a spiritual friend, is the bodhisattvas' practice.

The purpose of spiritual practice is to hold up a mirror to yourself. Sometimes the reflection in the mirror is not pretty. But that's not a problem. If your face is dirty, you can wash it and if your hair is unruly, you can comb it. Sometimes your teacher will point out your faults. If you were less proud, this would happen more often, but often a spiritual teacher has to wait patiently for you to see what he could have told you if you were willing to listen. The person who insults us is looking for our most shameful vulnerable point. In seeking to damage you, he is actually helping you, if you had more humility. The enemy who slanders us is actually functioning as our spiritual friend.

-------------

[blossomingtree]

Meditation practice does have the infuriating quality that you feel you just don't get it...if only you work a little harder, then you'll see it. The problem is, you're looking in the wrong direction because of your preconceptions. The only advice I can give is to sit without any hope of getting anything or fear of missing it. Just simple minded practice every day. Eventually your preconceptions will show themselves for what they are: just more thoughts. And when they are dropped, the truth that was always there will stand revealed.

Oh, and one more thing. You also need a teacher you can trust to keep you from going off in the wrong direction. In my experience the biggest problem people have is attachment to meditation. Usually beginners are attached to the external form of practice and older students to the sense of peace they get from practice. (Yes, practice starts out boring but doesn't stay boring.) Also, sometimes people will trip out on some theory. The teacher is there to shake you up when this happens.

Please don't let minor problems stand in the way of finding a teacher you can work with.

------------

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I meant to write you, JoeMc, you wrote something about an enlightened person once, and here's your answer: The thread that should not be named

Enlightenment is not just a word, it's a reality for some, but those words are not always used the same way. Would an enlightened person hurt so intentionally, ot be so self absorbed/self enarmored, that they don't even know what they are doing? I doubt it. This is the reason - to my mind - for genuine traditions and teachers/teachings. Other than that -

My perspective is do what you want, what you feel is right for you, what you are comfortable with. It's your life and what's important (in my opinion) is that you are true to yourself, true in your own heart and being .. happy, fulfilled.

Everyone has their own path and no path is better than anyone else's (I do favor personalities that are walking in Light and Love more fully though I admit - personal bias 'tis all ) - but we all have our karma and connections.

I agree with catsquotl in that if one seeks to master something though, of course Masters can be helpful and I think there is such a thing as genuine insights which can help those of us who are not as advanced (in understanding, just like a cook can learn from a more advanced cook - it's not a judgement, it's just a thing) (- and with the huge caveat: can one find a genuine teacher who has no sin in their heart i.e. they are human but they have broken the chains of ego to some degree that is meaningful and honest, until one is found, well at least we can encourage each other ) but what is valuable is that the person is happy, is true to themself. Then we can all be happy in true friendship and isn't that already great.

FWIW.

BT

I suppose it's a very big subject, the teacher - student relationship. I mean it exists on so many levels especially nowadays with multi-media etc. It's as if all at once the 'teachings' and the 'teachers' have been opened up to the entire world and at the same time, a type of teacher-disciple relationship that existed before the age of the internet has become impossible. Perhaps this is too broad of a generality, but living with the master, sometimes in close proximity is now more impossible than ever, or was it ever possible, and is it really necessary. There alone you could write a whole chapter on those couple of questions.

Yes I remember now, was it the purpose of serving a teacher and seeing that teacher as the Buddha that I wrote about ? I think this is an important point because it seems fundamentally psychologically possible that to 'project' in such a way or transfer will nourish and foster the ideal of enlightenment within the practioneer's heart. Even in a mechanical non aspirational sense the work of relating to the Teacher as Buddha brings down a staircase out of the clouds so to speak to make the ideal a little more tangible. How is this different than watching the rising and falling of the abdomen or the gentle or sometimes non existent infusion and ebbing of the human breath ? To me there is no difference because in essence when we are struggling with a meditation technique or struggling to really see the Venerable one as Buddha himself we are cast into the arena of Faith, Blind, Faith, Doubt and all of those things which at some time have to be addressed on the path.

Of what I'm speaking about is based in Tantric Buddhism mostly based in the schools of Tibetan Buddhism. But I'm sure Ajahn Sumedho in particular and many more too have been taken to a place of deep veneration for their own teacher Ajahn Cha, how this came about I'm sure is somewhat different than the pathway of a tantric tibetan practioneer but nevertheless the result in some respects must be the same. I suppose all in all the Guru acts as a mirror a large mirror perhaps, Hubble size mirror, , not sure if the Hubble uses mirrors ! Yes it is very important to meet others on the path I agree. When I meet others on the path it's like sitting down to enjoy a nice cup of tea. It's a complete teaching, to say, be away from a dharma centre for a couple of years and to come back and see the same people. I have a poem I wrote not so long ago about that. I'll post it hear if you would like to read. Thanks, all the best, Joe. :)

Returning to Jampa Ling

Returning to the
old place
Meeting friends
who have stayed
there forever
Brings eternal peace
upon your heart
And your days
rise like wisps of smoke
in a clear clean
sky
And the stillness
envelopes you
like a newly opened page
of a book
Who then will say
continuity and tradition
Same place things
are of no value ?
Here an ancient
Spruce tree overhangs
the lawn
its Red bark
Watching people
come and go.

[blossomingtree]

I like the poem Joe Mc. Thank you so much for sharing it.

BT

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Personally I will wait until the teacher shows up when I am ready.
In the mean time the value of finding a teacher has come up a couple of times.

So I'd like to share this 1995 book by Bill Hamilton.
Saints and Psychopaths

It does a fairly good job of explaining why there are probably more psychopaths than saints and how to spot the difference..

Hope it is useful to some.

With Love
Eelco

Dont you think that "the value of a teacher" is basically "you need a teacher" in different words?

[blossomingtree]

"the value of an orgasm"

"you need an orgasm"

"the value of healthy eating"

"you need to eat healthily"

"the value of wise counsel"

"you need wise counsel"

"the value of sunshine"

"you need sunshine"

"the value of gold"

"you need gold"

What do you think, shivatar? Personally I never submitted to a teacher for many years, but got lucky.

BT