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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spirituality

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  #21  
Old 31-01-2020, 11:32 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 202
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
Do you believe that souls exist ?
Of course! Why else would I ask which kind of evolution brought it into existence?
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  #22  
Old 31-01-2020, 06:59 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,847
 
Why does anything exist?
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  #23  
Old 31-01-2020, 07:47 PM
lemex lemex is online now
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,078
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Why does anything exist?
I was thinking the same thing, logic says there should be nothing at all, but this is not possible and there is some thing that defies what should be.
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  #24  
Old 31-01-2020, 08:03 PM
Molearner Molearner is online now
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,461
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Why does anything exist?

Jyorir,

The ultimate rhetorical question. Offered as fruit for contemplation but without seeking the correct answer. There comes a point when one must accept that reason, logic and/or science can give no acceptable answer. My hand is not up to answer this question....but the question itself is good. Good from the standpoint that we must humble ourselves. By doing this and that implies being open-minded then we have the framework to answer and understand many other questions.

Perhaps it is easier for a Christian or a devotee of any other religion to find peace with this conundrum. For myself, I accept the concept of eternity...meaning that there was never a time that nothing existed. Therefore, we speak of the eternal God. Deuteronomy 29:29 informs us...."The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever..." Thus, with a leap of faith I believe in God and must find and accept contentment in that knowledge.
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  #25  
Old 31-01-2020, 09:27 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,847
 
Hi Molearner,

I was thinking more along the lines of Genesis:

And God said...etc.

God is said to be self-existent, infinite, eternal, but the Creation itself seems to be a special or subsidiary case....

...time, matter, a dynamic interdependent multiplicity, but especially significant: a pervasive conditional ignorance...of God.

Why would He do that?

~J

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  #26  
Old 31-01-2020, 10:32 PM
Molearner Molearner is online now
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,461
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Hi Molearner,

I was thinking more along the lines of Genesis:

And God said...etc.

God is said to be self-existent, infinite, eternal, but the Creation itself seems to be a special or subsidiary case....

...time, matter, a dynamic interdependent multiplicity, but especially significant: a pervasive conditional ignorance...of God.

Why would He do that?

~J


Jyotir,

First, when you asked "Why does anything exist ?"...…..I took that to what I thought was the ultimate.....God. As to what we have been given...."a pervasive conditional ignorance of God" I think of going back to the Greek's understanding of knowledge. The three basic categories of doxa, episteme and gnosis. I will be somewhat guilty of characterizing the basic definitions of these concepts. Here is in very short form:
Doxa=accepting what you have been told by others as being truth
Episteme=knowledge derived by reason and logic...and if you will, scientific proof
Gnosis=knowledge derived by personally experiencing it....the simplest example could be that by episteme you have proven that the earth is round but that looking at the earth from space...you SEE that the earth, indeed is round....a totally different experience. This is in the category of an epiphany.
IMO knowledge by epiphany provides the most certain and enduring form of knowledge. No one can convince or change your belief about what you experienced.

If God simply made things known to us we would be robbed of this experience of epiphany. The searching mind would simply find another point of focus and God and his creation would just be something that is taken for granted. It would lose the majesty of its true nature and without the mystery of God and the spiritual world the highest altar might become the material.

I love nature shows and am intrigued by the intricacies of nature. Rather than simply crediting evolution for the uniqueness of each facet of nature my first thought is....this is amazing what God has done and it serves as a revelation of his existence. When we realize that we can discern God from nature eventually we learn to be open to the presence of God in our fellow men. I have often said that when one sees love that one is seeing God. Those types of sudden revelations about the godliness of mankind involuntarily can be accompanied by tears. I would also classify these as epiphanies......What appears to be the intentional shielding of God would be viewed by some as His greatest gift to us. It gives meaning to the journey that we are on and the endless nature of this journey. It is things like this that give us the smallest concept of the meaning of grace and a deeper appreciation for the magnitude of if.
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  #27  
Old 31-01-2020, 10:59 PM
JustASimpleGuy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
I love nature shows and am intrigued by the intricacies of nature. Rather than simply crediting evolution for the uniqueness of each facet of nature my first thought is....this is amazing what God has done and it serves as a revelation of his existence. When we realize that we can discern God from nature eventually we learn to be open to the presence of God in our fellow men. I have often said that when one sees love that one is seeing God. Those types of sudden revelations about the godliness of mankind involuntarily can be accompanied by tears. I would also classify these as epiphanies......What appears to be the intentional shielding of God would be viewed by some as His greatest gift to us. It gives meaning to the journey that we are on and the endless nature of this journey. It is things like this that give us the smallest concept of the meaning of grace and a deeper appreciation for the magnitude of if.

I love nature shows too. I remember the original Cosmos series with Carl Sagan. The episodes always left me with a deep sense of awe.

I've always loved nature. All of it, on Earth and in the heavens. It's mind-boggling how it all fits and works together so well. How hydrogen and helium (and a tiny bit of lithium), coaxed by gravity, came to be the amazing multiplicity we now experience. Astounding!

Intellect can only take one so far. Beyond that it's wonderment, appreciation and gratitude.
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  #28  
Old 01-02-2020, 12:57 AM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,011
 
Siemens . . .

It is all but impossible to ask the mind to come up with some kind of valid working conclusion on something like this. Ask the mind something like this and it dances and spins out of control endlessly. Look what you ended up with . . . ask why do souls exist and you sin off into evolution / wholeness / circular reasoning / cycles of birth and rebirth / origins / responsibility / experiments / relation to the cosmos / universal vs individuality / past lives / love / union / atoms / particles / consciousness / cosmic beings containing smaller beings / soul groups / faith / human existence / meteorites / dinosaurs / games of life / inability to unravel mysteries / God verification / etc.

That’s enough. There’s more. You get the point.

Same thing with “what is ego?” Ask that question and you never get a viable answer.

The mind is an endless series of “what if’s” and “how about’s” and “maybes” and “perhaps” and “I heard” and I read” and “Youtube says” and on and on and on. Mind was designed to compare / organize / define / analyze. It is a tool Soul uses to interpret its world around It ( Soul ).

We are taught to expect and let mind control our viewpoint. As the old saying goes . . . Mind is a fabulous servant but a terrible master. This whole schoolroom thing is set up so that mind takes charge first . . . for an incredible number of lifetimes. When someone REALLY begins to discern between mind and Soul . . . is when such questions such as you ask . . . will be answered.

And yes . . . there IS distinction. Very much so. But it is a distinction that mind actually does not want you to make . . . from any level. Mind absolutely wants to stay in control . . . and will do all it can to remain so.

I know this doesn’t answer your question . . . but it gives you a few clues as to why you will never get your answers to such questions from the mind.

Disbelief does not disprove . . . and belief does not prove. You have to plug in your presumptions or postulates and then see how they work . . . and to what end . . . and then go from there.

Or course . . . if you question expectations and desire in the first place . . . you proceed with a astounding set of handcuffs.

On we go.
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2020, 04:10 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,847
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner

If God simply made things known to us we would be robbed of this experience of epiphany. The searching mind would simply find another point of focus and God and his creation would just be something that is taken for granted. It would lose the majesty of its true nature and without the mystery of God and the spiritual world the highest altar might become the material.
Yes, and that false alter is the illusion of physical existence - maya - the superficial appearance of what is veiled.

Quote:
I love nature shows and am intrigued by the intricacies of nature. Rather than simply crediting evolution for the uniqueness of each facet of nature my first thought is....this is amazing what God has done and it serves as a revelation of his existence. When we realize that we can discern God from nature eventually we learn to be open to the presence of God in our fellow men. I have often said that when one sees love that one is seeing God. Those types of sudden revelations about the godliness of mankind involuntarily can be accompanied by tears. I would also classify these as epiphanies......
A big Yes to that. And the tears are true affect indicating deep experience and revelation.

This is very similar to recent comments in the expectation thread in Spiritual development forum about the spontaneous development of Bhakti (devotion) out of jnana (knowledge/discrimination)
Quote:
What appears to be the intentional shielding of God would be viewed by some as His greatest gift to us
Yes, for sure.
Sri Aurobindo talks about this as the ultimate holocaust (sacrifice). The willful plunging of an all-conscious one self, eternal and infinite, into an utter oblivion of divided finite time-bound ignorance of self...so the component aspects of that multiplicity (us!) might have the joy of self-discovery of our true Identity. That's the very definition of love! (and Jesus Christ is the exemplar of the individual human possibility embodied in that evolutionary scheme)
Quote:
It gives meaning to the journey that we are on and the endless nature of this journey. It is things like this that give us the smallest concept of the meaning of grace and a deeper appreciation for the magnitude of if.
Yes again. How could grace not be felt and surmised from all of This?
~ J
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2020, 07:33 PM
Molearner Molearner is online now
Master
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,461
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
I think of going back to the Greek's understanding of knowledge. The three basic categories of doxa, episteme and gnosis. I will be somewhat guilty of characterizing the basic definitions of these concepts. Here is in very short form:
Doxa=accepting what you have been told by others as being truth
Episteme=knowledge derived by reason and logic...and if you will, scientific proof
Gnosis=knowledge derived by personally experiencing it... This is in the category of an epiphany.
IMO knowledge by epiphany provides the most certain and enduring form of knowledge. No one can convince or change your belief about what you experienced.


Now perhaps I will be guilty of belaboring what I have said....:) But here it is in short:

Doxa=childhood(believing what you are told)
Episteme=adulthood(using rationale to discover truth)
Gnosis=maturity(wisdom from epiphany)

My apologies for re-visiting a previous post.....:)
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