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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #151  
Old 26-06-2018, 11:28 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Originally Posted by Rain95
Those meditation stages were written by Kamalashila who did not follow the Zen "chan" school of Buddhism and in fact he disagreed with Chan Buddhism. There was a huge debate between Kamalashila and Moheyan of the East Mountain teaching of Chan Buddhism called the "Council of Lhasa." The debate was over which Buddhist school held the true dhamma. Tibetan sources claim Kamalashila won the debate and Chinese sources claim Moheyan won.


Wait... I was told my school has the pure dhamma in its pristine form .


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So it's not really a matter of here are the accepted meditation stages of "Buddhism." Buddhism like all religions has disagreements within it over various teachings and practices.


That's true, and the meditation stages aren't described as JB described it.


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Those writings were only accepted in certain Buddhism schools and not accepted in others. Also, of course, none of that was written or taught by Buddha. As somebody who has studied Zen, I can see a problem with those teachings right away. The problem is in emphasis. The way Kamalashila presents these teachings, they are directed to the ego. So the ego is the one seeking different experiences and stages. This is fine, but teachings like this usually don't change what a person is, only what they do. It's kind of an "on and off" teaching. One sits in meditation, experiences various things, then stops meditating and is themselves again.

The Chan school, or Zen Buddhism, does not emphasize seeking goals like stages in meditation. Zen meditation was heavily influenced by Taoism in China in it's early stages, so the emphasis is more on carrying the state of mind in meditation at all times, mindfulness or insight observation "Guan" from Daoism. A detachment from thought and thinking. An awareness of the current moment free of desire and attachment. Stages may exist in this way of emphasizing things, but one does not make them a goal or seek them. They occur naturally as one becomes selfless and pays attention to the current moment always.


That's pretty much along the lines I was taught as well.


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Also, because the Zen emphasis is on current experience free from the influence of thought and thinking, teachings are of secondary importance. Teachings point to the experience, but are not a part of it. This agrees with what Buddha taught about the need to abandon all teachings in the practice or experience. Obviously, teachings are not abandoned, they just assume a new form. Teachings can be intellectual, a part of thought and thinking, or they can be actualized or lived. manifested/applied in the present.




Yes, the practice and philosophy go together.
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  #152  
Old 26-06-2018, 11:32 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Zen is a teacher based system.

Everything is a teacher based system. We learn from ourselves, others, and internal and external things from the moment we are born. We never stop learning from "teachers." I would not define Zen in that way though, it limits what it really is.

Let's see how web dictionaries defines that word:

Zen
zen/Submit
noun
a Japanese school of Mahayana Buddhism emphasizing the value of meditation and intuition.

Definition of Zen
1 : a Japanese sect of Mahayana Buddhism that aims at enlightenment by direct intuition through meditation
2 or zen : a state of calm attentiveness in which one's actions are guided by intuition rather than by conscious effort

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Zen

That's better than defining it as a teacher based system. Every religion is a teacher based system. What they teach is very different.
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  #153  
Old 26-06-2018, 11:43 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
Everything is a teacher based system. We learn from ourselves, others, and internal and external things from the moment we are born. We never stop learning from "teachers." I would not define Zen in that way though, it limits what it really is.

Let's see how web dictionaries defines that word:

Zen
zen/Submit
noun
a Japanese school of Mahayana Buddhism emphasizing the value of meditation and intuition.

Definition of Zen
1 : a Japanese sect of Mahayana Buddhism that aims at enlightenment by direct intuition through meditation
2 or zen : a state of calm attentiveness in which one's actions are guided by intuition rather than by conscious effort

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Zen

That's better than defining it as a teacher based system. Every religion is a teacher based system. What they teach is very different.




Yes they all have teachers, and mostly they are given great importance, but really students make teachers and vice versa in the social arrangement (sangha), so the novice is equally important.
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  #154  
Old 27-06-2018, 10:33 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Originally Posted by jones[QUOTE
boy]Nobody is saying there is only one way. Heck I am not a Buddhist nor do I do any Buddhist practices. So I definitely don't believe there is only one way.

I also agree that each persons way is personal. We each have our own unique issues and fears that we have to work through.

It doesn't mean that we can't still have common experiences. Energy and how people first start to experience that is a perfect example.

Even in meditation we can have common stages or sign posts.

Well that is good then, that your open minded to the totality of life experiences unique to each individual, regardless of beliefs and sign posts held by others, pointing the way and directions.

Quote:
Here is an example.



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I think many people who meditate can relate to these various stages.

Now is Samatha the end state?

No, it is not, I would say this is really just another beginning but it can help someone know there is more and where they are with their practice using time tested texts from some old guy.

Well I must say the information you offered, was interesting to read. If you need something to gauge yourself against it is all well and good. The mind likes to know what the self is doing and compare, weigh up its growth etc etc. In the process of opening and noticing yourself you can understand your own awareness and openings quite naturally. Just by paying attention. Observing and noticing more ongoing. It just depends on how deep you go into yourself to notice the fullness of those openings.

In living this life, life itself can naturally lead you through processors to understand yourself moving and opening, what it all means and how it assists your own growth. The self itself is a good guide for its own sign posts directing itself, through listening and noticing as I mentioned. Even if you don't know, often the unknown will appear to show you a bigger picture that you might need and often it shows the way you need it.
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  #155  
Old 27-06-2018, 12:30 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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[quote=JustBe][quote=jones

Well that is good then, that your open minded to the totality of life experiences unique to each individual, regardless of beliefs and sign posts held by others, pointing the way and directions.







Well I must say the information you offered, was interesting to read. If you need something to gauge yourself against it is all well and good. The mind likes to know what the self is doing and compare, weigh up its growth etc etc. In the process of opening and noticing yourself you can understand your own awareness and openings quite naturally. Just by paying attention. Observing and noticing more ongoing. It just depends on how deep you go into yourself to notice the fullness of those openings.

In living this life, life itself can naturally lead you through processors to understand yourself moving and opening, what it all means and how it assists your own growth. The self itself is a good guide for its own sign posts directing itself, through listening and noticing as I mentioned. Even if you don't know, often the unknown will appear to show you a bigger picture that you might need and often it shows the way you need it.[/QUOTE]


Thank you Nature got your input.
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  #156  
Old 27-06-2018, 12:48 PM
sky sky is offline
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[quote=jonesboy]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe


Thank you Nature got your input.






' Nature got your input.'


But did it Flow through the system
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