could somebody help please

Originally Posted by bartholomew

Our ultimate futures are fixed.

Yours may be but mine isn't. It's completely open ended.

Originally Posted by danieltalis

Yours may be but mine isn't. It's completely open ended.

I understand you. I meant that the goal of humanity is perfection. In this there is no choice whatsoever. This goal is set for us by the creator and is fixed. There is nothing any human soul can do to change this. Of course lesser goals, those of personalities, are fluid and we have free choice regarding them.

Originally Posted by bartholomew

I meant that the goal of humanity is perfection.

Then we have attained it. When I look around I see Perfection. I suggest that the goal (enlightenment) is to recognise it constantly. That is if we want to be enlightened. We also have the capability to be unenlightened. This has it's purpose too. All states of being simply 'are'.

Maybe we're speaking of two different things. When I say "perfection" I mean we have attained the point at which we no longer have to incarnate in human bodies.

Two points of view. One is linear and one is spacial.
If there are an infinite number of points of view then there are an infinite number of reasons to incarnate.

There are many ways to view this. Perfection is everywhere, but humanity as a whole has yet to recognize it and embrace it.

Originally Posted by bartholomew

The hallucinogens actually inhibit our normal filters and let us see the world for what it is, unfiltered (when done properly. Else the imagination can take over and all sorts of fancy good and bad things can happen) When done properly, it can be a very high vibration experience, but one must be accompanied by someone who truly masters the technique else he might just get lost in pure imagination or be led astray into nonsense by unpure energies. The Aborigine also took mushrooms just for fun, but try to get them to admit that!

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There are many in the world who use artificial means to provoke spiritual experiences. There is only way to have a high connection though and that is through using the disciplined mind. Those who use mushrooms or other things such as sex to raise kundalini are, in reality, experiencing only an astral reflection of a higher plane. It is not possible for any human being to rise above the lower mind by stimulating the physical vehicle or by forceably putting it to sleep through use of a drug no matter how natural the origin of that drug. The dangers that must be guided against exist only in the lower astral which can be a fearsome place. But the astral is the astral. Low or high it is an earthbound spiritual plane. Humanity is now aspiring much higher, the mental and above. It simply is not possible to rise higher than the astral plane in this way. There is only one way to connect to the high planes of existence and that is by first learning to set aside the physical, astral. This is only done by training and using the centers in the head.

It is typical for human beings to look to the past finding security and truth. We forget that the ways of yesterday must not be the standards of today if we want to progress. Spiritual progression is what humanity is all about so the new ways must replace the old. In the natural evolution of the spirit we on the Earth have been learning new methods. The old ways of the shaman are not compatible with the new. Mankind has been learning to use mind power for quite a long time. This is the proper direction of effort. "Western" man has set aside the old ways again for good reason. The methods of the shaman no longer satisfy. The reason is because they do not allow high spiritual access. If mankind is to advance to the new spirituality they must be set aside in favor of the higher discipline of mind. The reason is simple. Through the eons of time on Earth we have been immersed in spiritual evolution. We are now at the point where we must learn to use our higher facilities or be left behind. This is the reason there are only a few shamans left in the world while so many are developing the mind. It is a mistake to think that "mind" is not spiritual. It is. The new path is the realms above the mental through proper meditation. For this the body must be cleansed and quiescent which means no drugs of any kind.

Channelled through Bartholomew...[/quote]

Maybe I have kept my post a little too focused on one aspect for your view:

The only version we hear of Shamans of the past is the parts that stand out; mushrooms and hallucinogens to name the obvious. They used drugs as a way to go through the portal for the first time and recognize the portal and sometimes when they felt they needed the journey wouldn't be fruitful otherwise (hallucinogens can open doors, but will not keep them open and I don't recommend taking drugs BTW). This is not necessary anymore as part (by now most) of the veil that covered Earth and the mental collective has been lifted. I do not really see a difference between the Shaman of old and the new Shaman other than times have changed, not the view of the Shaman or his goals. Shamanism has always been about purity of the mind, soul and of nature as a whole. Only books written by people who did not get the basics of Shamanism lead to believe otherwise.

I have no clue where you got the idea that I think the mind is not spiritual. Everything is spiritual. Everything is pure energy, drops in the body of water that we call "The One" or God. THAT is the way of the Shaman, but that does not exclude the need to understand also what lies between top and bottom layers just like we still mostly need to understand our emotions and their cause to let go of pain. If you want to talk about the advanced stuff rather than just isolated aspects, I'm right there with you!

Originally Posted by Baile

bartholomew, I agree with your first statement and it's one reason why I stopped with the alcohol and drugs back in the 80s. But this idea of being left behind, where does that come from? It's sounds like bad Anthroposophy to me. Christians have their hell and eternal damnation, and Steiner had his spiritual evolution obstruction theories. It's the fear doctrine of those who have never connected with the reality of a benevolent loving universe, IMO.

No one can be left behind; everything is one. Some take different paths or just stay longer, but they will eventually follow.

I have no clue where you got the idea that I think the mind is not spiritual. Everything is spiritual. Everything is pure energy, drops in the body of water that we call "The One" or God. THAT is the way of the Shaman, but that does not exclude the need to understand also what lies between top and bottom layers just like we still mostly need to understand our emotions and their cause to let go of pain. If you want to talk about the advanced stuff rather than just isolated aspects, I'm right there with you!



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I have no idea what we might have said that would result in such confusion. Let's start over. Will you tell me your thoughts regarding mind? Since I am assuming that you know something about Shamanism you must have some clearly defined ideas.

When I listen to your description, I though Pleiadians. they are in the heave in the direction of Taurus, which we have just pass through. There is not one called Elf that I know of, but not all have public introduced themself. They claim to be our ancestors. Peliadians are very angelic looking beings, and human like. All have light hair and blue eyes. I kind of feel, that they could have been the angels that the bible talks about. and could have been the reason for virgin conception of Jesus. that's a personal opinion of course. Pleiadians are here to help with our spiritual growth and have watch over us for a very long time.. When meeting them, it is said there is a rippled effect of calmness they will projected. That gives you a sense of who they are. you would feel very comfortable in their presence. This is comparable to 1st impression that we get when we meet someone for the 1st time, (intuitive impression) Pleiadians or very interested in our thought process, for some reason. And will generally be very happy to answer any spiritual question you may have so they can study how you processes it. Pleiadians will take you on journey of the heavens. or any where you want to go. They thoroughly enjoy our company. Did you send out any thing that might have been consider an invitation? Where you questioning anything spiritual at the time? any way just giving a possible explanation. Light and love