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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #11  
Old 05-10-2018, 10:37 AM
Busby Busby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
I could try to be funny ... I could try to be serious ... Which to choose?

Years ago, I also began to wonder: Why am I here? What am I supposed to do? Why do people reincarnate (when I started to believe that we reincarnate)?

In a few words ... I currently believe that souls are on a path of evolvement. We incarnate in Physical because we can't yet "be for long" on a higher plane of existence. We incarnate as humans, because we progressed enough not to incarnate as an animal form of life. Humans aren't all on the same level of evolvement.

More specifically ... Humans almost mastered their instincts, and are currently focused and driven by emotions. We can't be for long on a thought-responsive plane of existence (as the higher planes are) because our emotions (fear especially) push us quickly into a nightmarish scenario. So, we mainly need to learn to master our emotions, before our physical reincarnation cycle could end. At the same time we have to improve our intellect (which human just started to develop), and intuition (which humans barely are aware of).

At the same time, each one of us has our individual lesson / experience for this life, that is caused by karmic balancing of the though forms we created in previous incarnations.

Funny reply ... If you ask why you aren't a lower form of life, maybe somebody "up there" hears you, and grants your wish ... (?)

I like the part 'I currently believe...' - this just about correspondes to my own experiences through life. I've found that new information and new insights bring new philosophies. Your response is what I may respectfully call 'standard', it isn't really a reply to my question.

I'm a very keen reader of The Tibetan Book of the Dead a well-thumbed book that warns its readers that being reborn as an animal is a mistake that can easily be made during the after - death process if illusion is mistaken for reality. Part of the challenge of being alive is to learn to separate illusion from reality. Presumably our 'new age' understanding would prefer to avoid having to face such thoughts and such consequences.
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  #12  
Old 05-10-2018, 11:31 AM
Baile Baile is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Presumably our 'new age' understanding would prefer to avoid having to face such thoughts and such consequences.
No, what that is, is spiritual consciousness and understanding has advanced in the last 1000 years. Just as we no longer believe in Dark Age notions like the devil and hell, we have also evolved beyond similar punishment beliefs about being reborn as animals due to "mistake" consequences.

You're someone who strongly argues against religious beliefs, and I'm surprised at your insistence with regards to this particular religious belief. So it seems it's Christian religion you specifically have an issue with. My position is it's now time to jettison all Dark Age fear-and-punishment belief-dogma, regardless of the philosophical origins. There is a lot of modern 20th-21st century esoteric-occult literature on this topic in fact, I could PM you some reading suggestions.
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2018, 06:39 AM
Busby Busby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
What makes you think being human is the top of the table? Spiritual hierarchy comes from the ego not Spirit, and whatever form our consciousness is in there is a reason for it being 'there'. We all began in the same place, a puddle of gloop that was sitting around between a couple of rocks in the primordial beginnings of the planet and surprisingly we're the end of a long line of genetic anomalies, some of which can't be explained scientifically.


We as humans are destroying the planet and the habitat of the polar bears et al, perhaps if Doris Stokes is right then our karma is to incarnate as humans to destroy the planet then reincarnate as a polar bear to experience the consequences of that.

That we humans are top of the table seems to me to be a perfectly fitting positioning, I can't think of any other species on this planet at the moment who would be in a position to refute such a claim.
In my book the destruction of the planet lies in our hands as a result of our thoughts, words and deeds. At the moment it only worries a few people and may well lie in the natural progression of things.
As I don't think of karma as punishment I can't side with any D. Stokes' suggestion or belief that I'll come back as my neighbours dog. But, who knows?
Nevertheless I'd still like to know where I was in that void before 'Busby' appeared.
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2018, 06:49 AM
froebellian froebellian is offline
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Honestly, a simple no to the OP's question. What I do wonder is the reason for existence, and as I get older, more cynical and skeptical I see some of the possible reasons.
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:04 AM
Busby Busby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froebellian
Honestly, a simple no to the OP's question. What I do wonder is the reason for existence, and as I get older, more cynical and skeptical I see some of the possible reasons.

As we probably all agree with you and your desire to know the reason for existence, maybe, and knowing (or accepting) that everything has a cause/reason the answer would/could lie in that 'void' of which I am speaking.
It would be interesting to know why you becoming being cynical and sceptical has led to the appearance of possible reasons (and what they are).
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  #16  
Old 06-10-2018, 12:07 PM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
That we humans are top of the table seems to me to be a perfectly fitting positioning, I can't think of any other species on this planet at the moment who would be in a position to refute such a claim.
In my book the destruction of the planet lies in our hands as a result of our thoughts, words and deeds. At the moment it only worries a few people and may well lie in the natural progression of things.
As I don't think of karma as punishment I can't side with any D. Stokes' suggestion or belief that I'll come back as my neighbours dog. But, who knows?
Nevertheless I'd still like to know where I was in that void before 'Busby' appeared.
Consciousness is not emergent of matter, matter is emergent of consciousness and that's the understanding. You see coming back as your neightbour's dog as punishment but how might consciousness experience that existence? In general, dogs have more love and loyalty inside them as a default than humans do. You coming here as Busby and kicking the dog, then coming back as a dog to bite someone's *** has a beautiful symmetry to it.


"You have always been here."
Kosh
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  #17  
Old 06-10-2018, 02:18 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
In my book the destruction of the planet lies in our hands as a result of our thoughts, words and deeds. At the moment it only worries a few people and may well lie in the natural progression of things.
As I don't think of karma as punishment ...
From C.2 of the treatise I am currently composing, wherein I focus on explaining what Jesus meant when he said: “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Matthew 16:25-26)
"Now, back to addressing the main topic at hand: Though the alternative possibilities that a soul may psychospiritually develop to the point where it ‘finally’ fully acknowledges that it is not a separate self in its own right but a subsidiary expression of Life Itself and so consciously chooses to mentally, emotionally and behaviorally completely devote itself to living, and therefore forever thereafter lives on, as a coherent part of Its never‑ending Flow or that it may, as a result of volitionally or otherwise getting caught up in thinking, feeling and believing that the nature and extent of its personal being and doing derive from its own selfishness and so becomes psychospiritually disconnected from and out of synch with the lives of others around it to the point where it ‘finally’ ends up no longer being a part of the Flow of all Being (as a coherent entity, that is) are ever-present … as I say, though either of such ‘finalities’ are actualizable at any point in the course of a soul’s journey in the context of Life’s Stream, and though a soul may reverse its direction in either of the foregoing regards at any time, such ‘happenings’ are generally the cumulative result of a succession of choices which corroborate and reinforce ‘the net sum’ of prior choices made over multiple lifetimes. So no single-lifetime choice or trajectory, again in either regard, should ever be regarded as being absolutely soul-destiny determining.

There are, however, macroscopic patterns in history wherein developmental sequences pertaining to the fore-referenced alternative possibilities probabilistically peak. Since the selfish versus self-transcendental personal-inclination trendencies☺ I speak of are generally sparked and fueled by interrelating others who are also in the process of acting out such bifurcating inclinations themselves, said ‘forevermore’ and ‘nevermore’ alternatives tend to be ‘finalized’ in the context of mass events wherein huge ‘waves’ (in terms of the numbers of individuals involved) of both such kinds of happenings cyclically crest and trough on a seasonal basis, as reflected in Jesus’ harvest-time allegories: “Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.” (John 4:35-36) and “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6)

All of us are now facing make-or-break (in terms of ongoing soul development) choices in the above regards, as anyone who even halfway appreciates such matters can readily see. We live at a time of intensifying trial and tribulation in the context of a systemic socio-ecological recalibration wherein, having received and positively responded to a fair amount of Love and Joy support and stimulation when and where things were still going on well, many souls are blossoming, blooming, fructifying and going to seed (thereby instrumentally setting the stage for the next round of planetary socio-ecological development) in spectacular fashion, while others (who may be thought of as being relative newbies in terms of experiencing and responding to the inner urge for spiritual ‘ascension’, said ‘urge’ perhaps being a cosmic ‘call’ from their ‘future’) are more or less just managing to keep the door to ‘higher’ future post‑incarnational and reincarnational Love and Joy opportunities open by conscientiously resisting and rejecting the centripetal pull of selfishness and steadfastly persisting in Love and Joy generatingly relating to contiguous others and Life at large, self-transcendentally serving to optimize and augment the Flow of Life’s Love and Joy in and around them to whatever degree this may be possible. This, despite whatever personal loss and hardship they may have experienced or continue to experience, and even if, when and as they are unconscionably abandoned, exploited and/or abused by folks who have been so seduced by the temptations of selfishness that they just seek to gratify their own immediate desires without regard for Love and Joy experience and expression of neighboring others. Hence the wisdom of the advice (to anyone capable of grasping its full significance) contained in: “Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall … many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure [by*keeping on being loving, that is!] unto the end, the same shall be saved*.” (Matthew 24:6-13)

*‘Saved’, as used here, of course meaning soulfully ‘sustained’ and so ‘retained’, instead of being ‘eliminated’, as a psychospiritual component of the Flow of Life, notwithstanding the climatic reshuffling of all of the ‘cards’ in Life’s worldly ‘deck’ by virtue of the drastic changes which are necessarily part and parcel of the ‘death’ of a historically old and ‘birth’ of a historically new socio-ecological system such as those that are transpiring all across our world-stage at present."
Regarding the 'finalities' referenced above, I wrote:
"The short version of ‘the full story’ is that, with the benefit of having both (‘successful’ and ‘unsuccessful’) kinds of experiences, souls may incrementally become aware of the ins and outs of the multivarious kinds of liabilities which stem from short-sighted selfishness and (so) in due course choose to transcend any and all selfish-‘i’dentity associated inclinations such that they eventually become completely devoted to optimizing and augmenting the Entity of Life’s Love and Joy process above and beyond their own and (so) from that point on live in a state of ‘at oneness’ or conjunction with said Ever-Ongoing Process, hence one might say ‘forever’ or ‘eternally’, thereafter. The alternative possibility in this regard, of course, being their completely (capital letter ‘F’!) ‘Failing’ to do and be so.

The latter possibility derives from the fact that, if and as a soul reacts, as all selfish-ego bound (hence ‘immature’ in incarnational terms) souls inevitably sometimes do, to the frustration(s) and disappointment(s) of personal wishes, hopes, and expectations in an unduly selfish-gratification oriented (hence) other-forsaking manner – the idea that Life presents us with a series of ‘tests’ which we may either ‘pass’ or not in this regard pertains here – and if such all too human directional liability isn’t somehow neutralized and reversed – note if your experience is presently hellish: in retrospect, horrible-to-go-through experiences variously labeled ‘dark nights of the soul’, ‘hitting bottom’ and ‘ego-death’ will be seen to have actually having been boons in this regard! – a soul may become so mentally and emotionally ‘i’solated that its capacity and inclination to experience and express Love and Joy psychospiritually shrinks and shrivels (i.e. devolves) to the point where it becomes unloving and unjoyful in relation to Life and others that are a part of It. What happens then, since the Essence of Life is Love and Joy and that is what our Entity is actually the living expression of, what ‘happens’ then of course is that such soul just ‘blinks out’, i.e. it ‘vanishes’ from the ‘field’ of Life, as a psychospiritual ‘unit’. Such a soul completely ‘loses’ the possibility of ever incarnating again as an nodal entity. There is no ‘kernel’ of Love and Joy left which can then possibly incarnate and thereby evolve and develop to the point where it consciously integrates with and thereafter coherently lives on as a vital ‘member’ of The*‘Body’ of Life.

This final, because then and thereafter absolutely irremediable, ‘loss’ is what is referenced as the ‘second death’ in The Book of Revelation which, notwithstanding the fact that said book distorts the truth by conflating the personage of Jesus with The Entity of Life (a/k/a*Christ), as well as by projecting all anti-Christ ‘wrongdoing’ to be the work of a singularly evil, mythological Satan (alas, ‘channeled’ visions and sayings cannot help but be*‘shaped’ and ‘colored’ by the belief-lens of the ‘channeler’!), nevertheless appropriately in my opinion puts such and related phenomena in reincarnation-referencing perspective, to wit: “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast [the ‘beast’, of course, just being gross selfishness], neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan [i.e. the spirit of unmitigated selfishness] shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth … to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they [i.e. the unduly selfish people you see running rampant all over the globe today!] went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city.” (Revelation 20:4-9)

While I’m at it, in relation to the eschatological vision presented in said Book of Revelation, let me also say that, given the horribleness of the horrors and and miserableness of the miseries such ‘deceived’ (by the ‘dictates’ of selfishness) folks spawn, it is more than understandable why many would wish and project that perpetrators in said regards will experience and suffer the most hellish kinds of torments imaginable in retribution before their souls are annihilated by way of the above referenced ‘second death’ (following their bodies’ physical one), as grotesquely fantasized, for instance, in: “And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. … And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:9-15) An equally grotesque, retributional-wish fulfilling fantasy that selfish ‘sinners’ suffer the worst imaginable fate – albeit in this case, leaving the issue of what ultimately ‘happens’ to such souls schematically unresolved, one which continues to spiral downward without end! – appears in Ch.16 of The Bhagavad Gita: “Puffed up by power and inordinate conceit, swayed by lust and wrath, these wicked people hate Me Who am within them, as I am within all. Those who thus hate Me, who are cruel, the dregs of mankind, I condemn them to a continuous, miserable and godless rebirth. So reborn, they spend life after life, enveloped in delusion. And they never reach Me, … but degenerate into still lower forms of life.” Both this and the fore-referenced ‘final judgment’ scenarios are clearly negative-emotion ‘loaded’ and (so) thematically punitive. Such negativity and punitiveness don’t make sense in the context of Jesus’ vision and teaching (presented and discussed in the preceding chapter) that Love and Joy constitute Life’s programmatic Source ‘code’, to wit that ‘God’ is a beneficently-inclined ‘Father’ from which all Life springs, however.

This is not to say that the Flow of Life’s Love and Joy experience and expression doesn’t fork negatively (relatively speaking) in the case of folks who attitudes, intentions and behaviors in relation to other aspects of Life or Life Itself are value-negate-ing. Universally operative psychospiritual dyamics ensure that “God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap!” (Galatians 6:7) The point I am making is that the disintegration and existential cessation of a gestalt of Love and Joy as a nodal soul is really no more than just that: an ‘i’dentity-dissipating ‘happening’ wherein and whereby the elements that constitute the pattern of personal psychospiritual being are dispersed and recombinantly recycled, such that a soul’s components get ‘dissolved’ and ‘absorbed’ into and so, albeit no longer coherently, live on ‘in’ the beingnesses of other aspects of Life in the context of the absolutely positive Being (i.e. Entity) of our Life-Matrix wherein everyone and everything in existence derives from the same Source and so partakes of the same original ‘blessing’: “Ye [are] the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:45) There is no zero point in this regard, let alone something negative relative to that, in other words. Analogous to what physicists believe to be the case with physical matter-n-energy, soulful beingness can never really be ‘lost’ (albeit, as just stated, ‘i’dentity configurations can get reshuffled to the point where continuities in this regard may become unrecognizable, so thinking and speaking, as Jesus did, about the possibility of ‘losing’ one’s soul, in this case meaning the coherency of one’s psychospiritual gestalt, may nevertheless to be a functional way of considering and evaluating choices in face of the recycling dynamic which is continues to be operative in the process of ‘higher’ psychospiritual evolution, i.e. of soul-‘ascension’, as spoken of in this chapter)."
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  #18  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:27 AM
Busby Busby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baile
No, what that is, is spiritual consciousness and understanding has advanced in the last 1000 years. Just as we no longer believe in Dark Age notions like the devil and hell, we have also evolved beyond similar punishment beliefs about being reborn as animals due to "mistake" consequences.

You're someone who strongly argues against religious beliefs, and I'm surprised at your insistence with regards to this particular religious belief. So it seems it's Christian religion you specifically have an issue with. My position is it's now time to jettison all Dark Age fear-and-punishment belief-dogma, regardless of the philosophical origins. There is a lot of modern 20th-21st century esoteric-occult literature on this topic in fact, I could PM you some reading suggestions.

Yes, I do argue against religious beliefs. All of them. But not in the way you seem to have understood. My personal experiences at let's call it 'metaphysical levels' show me (me personally) that God is not a 'divine' being who requests various sort of obedience and line-towing but is in reality a natural and indivisible part of existence. It may well be that He/She is, right at the end, a sort of Brahma or Vishnu. I'm sure we'll find out (one day). Nor do I believe in any of your mentioned fear-and-punishment philosophies nor in biblical devils or angels, just so it's been said. I have my own understanding of these things similar to those devas of the Hindus and the morphic fields of Sheldrake.
Thanks for your very nice offer for literature but I doubt if there is much I haven't already covered. Having been and being a member of various societies and other groups interested in asking and answering these fascinating questions for decades I find myself to be almost satisfied what this life has brought me.

Something which not many of us can say.
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  #19  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:07 PM
Busby Busby is offline
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Davidsun, hello again.
Well, you did go to a lot of trouble in your double response to my original question. Thanks a lot. Clearly your argumentation is not for me - it doesn't - so to say - satisfy me. In fact I get no satisfaction from biblical texts but do however find the beautiful prose and rhythms of the St James' version to be soul touching. Looking back that has always been the main attraction of the book for me.
I strongly believe that the yogi who once said that there is maybe one person per year who achieves enlightenment said something very true. This would, I think, rather depend upon one's understanding of the word. He also said, but not in so many words, that it takes millions of years to get to that point.
For me, in my 'philosophy' there is a not-yet-seen factor which when it becomes visible will go a long way to solving our predicament. It may well be that it's here already and always has been but we can't see it because the trees are in the way.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:08 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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I think everything just is what it is, because as soon as I start asking "why am I human?" I would need to also ask "why is a dog a dog?" or "why is a tree a tree?" or "why is a star a star?"

I mean, there are so many things in the universe, there would never be enough hours in a million lifetimes to ask "why is it so?"

I even thought I could cut to the chase and ask; "why are things the way they are?" and all I got from doing that, was the answer "because if they weren't, they would be something else and yet you would still be asking the same question....unless, of course, you were not you anymore...and then you, as not being you, would probably not think about it or even care"... suffice to say, God started speaking with me from a very young age.

So, I decided that it was probably not a good idea to ask the universe questions which had no answers...If I was meant to know, no doubt I would, in time...and I swept it under the rug to go live with "why is a duck when it walks?"...because one leg is both the same, of course.
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