Edward Selim Michael - Law of Attention

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I just received my second book by Edward Selim Michael (Obstacles to Enlightenment and Liberation) and he's quite direct with his opening statements.

"It must be noted that currently, in the West and even in India, most seekers have only a superficial understanding of what spiritual practice really involves.

It is common to hear beginners speaking of 'felicity (Ananda) or 'devotional love' (bhakiti) as if the simple fact of using these words were sufficient to come to experiences these out-of-the-ordinary states".

I too have noticed this when I try to speak to those who present as "spiritual people" but actually lack depth and direct experiences when one tries to go past the lofty sounding words and theories. From the little that I've read thus far in this book, I can readily see some habits and tendencies in myself that require attention even after having practiced for over 30 years under a widely revered sage

about your last paragraph, I think you and I could have some positive conversations on that topic. There's a lot I agree to in what you mentioned.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

You enjoy your books I'm sure you will. I might have a look at the Videos, I actually enjoy Spiritual Teachings by listening rather than reading. I find If I close my eyes and let the words flow over me, like water in the shower, they sink in better.

You raise a very good point there regarding listening rather than reading. Researchers, however, have done studies that show that 85% of people learn best visually (reading, etc.) while only 15% learn best by listening. I personally recall best visually by reading.

Having said that, I must add that I love listening to a spiritual teacher in person as I focus not only on the words but also on the tone, body language, and energy.

There is a well-known story about the Sufi Master Hazrat Inayat Khan who once started taking notes while his spiritual teacher was speaking. His teacher stopped speaking instantly without comment. Hazrat eventually realized the importance of complete attention while a master is speaking whereas taking notes clearly diverts one's attention and causes one to miss some of what is being said. What one is meant to hear and understand in that moment will just happen quite naturally when one is completely focused.

There are indeed times when I just listen.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I just received my second book by Edward Selim Michael (Obstacles to Enlightenment and Liberation) and he's quite direct with his opening statements.

"It must be noted that currently, in the West and even in India, most seekers have only a superficial understanding of what spiritual practice really involves.

It is common to hear beginners speaking of 'felicity (Ananda) or 'devotional love' (bhakiti) as if the simple fact of using these words were sufficient to come to experiences these out-of-the-ordinary states".

I too have noticed this when I try to speak to those who present as "spiritual people" but actually lack depth and direct experiences when one tries to go past the lofty sounding words and theories. From the little that I've read thus far in this book, I can readily see some habits and tendencies in myself that require attention even after having practiced for over 30 years under a widely revered sage

Originally Posted by hallow

about your last paragraph, I think you and I could have some positive conversations on that topic. There's a lot I agree to in what you mentioned.

Let me share a story with you about a friend who took me to a lecture by his guru, who was talking about entering the silence/stillness.

Afterwards, the three of us were able to sit in a secluded area and I asked the guru what was her personal preference for entering the stillness. Naturally, she turned the question around and asked me what was my preferred process. After responding in detail to her question, I then raised my original question about her preferred process.

To the surprise of both my friend and me, there was a very long silence. The guru then stated that, although she could speak eloquently about entering the silence based on the teachings of her guru, she conceded that she still had difficulty entering the silence and, even more, sustaining it. My friend was stunned and asked why she had revealed this. She responded that, upon hearing my response, she realized that I was talking from direct experience and not just uttering words. She felt it best to just be directly honest since she felt that her words and subsequent follow-up answers would expose her.

Obviously, neither of us discussed that meeting with any of her disciples nor would I even mention her name in that context.

There are, however, many "gurus" who "fake it" when they are really not there. Nonetheless, their words can indeed be very helpful. It is my feeling that one must focus on the teaching and the process as opposed to worshiping the personality of the guru. In that manner, one validates the teachings through direct experience and one is not disappointed if the guru lacks integrity. One learns from all.

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Let me share a story with you about a friend who took me to a lecture by his guru, who was talking about entering the silence/stillness.

Afterwards, the three of us were able to sit in a secluded area and I asked the guru what was her personal preference for entering the stillness. Naturally, she turned the question around and asked me what was my preferred process. After responding in detail to her question, I then raised my original question about her preferred process.

To the surprise of both my friend and me, there was a very long silence. The guru then stated that, although she could speak eloquently about entering the silence based on the teachings of her guru, she conceded that she still had difficulty entering the silence and, even more, sustaining it. My friend was stunned and asked why she had revealed this. She responded that, upon hearing my response, she realized that I was talking from direct experience and not just uttering words. She felt it best to just be directly honest since she felt that her words and subsequent follow-up answers would expose her.

Obviously, neither of us discussed that meeting with any of her disciples nor would I even mention her name in that context.

There are, however, many "gurus" who "fake it" when they are really not there. Nonetheless, their words can indeed be very helpful. It is my feeling that one must focus on the teaching and the process as opposed to worshiping the personality of the guru. In that manner, one validates the teachings through direct experience and one is not disappointed if the guru lacks integrity. One learns from all.

I used to like to ask a lot of questions. Because I wanted to learn ,95% of the time with no real answers. The other 4% were so out there I didn't get it. Even asked people to dumb things down for me. Hahaha. Even then, I got so frustrated with it. And I stopped asking questions, and simply started listening and let the information come to me. It's a different mind set. There's a lot of reasons why people don't like to answer questions. Some don't simply know the answer and don't want to look dumb, some people think other's are just being dumb and don't want to take the time to explain because they think everyone should know it. Talking spiritual beliefs is a extremely sensitive subject. Some feel there being looked down on for believing what they do some think there being challenged and in there mind there beliefs is the ONLY way. Some don't want to think they made you believe anything, and they want you to make up your own mind to what you believe. Like me, now if you ask me I'll answer the best I can without feeling like I influenced you in your beliefs. Like for the longest time I thought there was only 1 way to meditate. To sit on a mountain top wrapped up like a pretzel humming a strange tune. Well not really but I hope you know what I mean. Meditating that way simply doesn't work for me. But then someone told me there's other ways to meditate. They didn't tell me how or what to do. But I figured out a way to meditate that actually works for me. I feel spiritually is very personalized to you. One size don't fit all.

[sky]

Originally Posted by hallow

I used to like to ask a lot of questions. Because I wanted to learn ,95% of the time with no real answers. The other 4% were so out there I didn't get it. Even asked people to dumb things down for me. Hahaha. Even then, I got so frustrated with it. And I stopped asking questions, and simply started listening and let the information come to me. It's a different mind set. There's a lot of reasons why people don't like to answer questions. Some don't simply know the answer and don't want to look dumb, some people think other's are just being dumb and don't want to take the time to explain because they think everyone should know it. Talking spiritual beliefs is a extremely sensitive subject. Some feel there being looked down on for believing what they do some think there being challenged and in there mind there beliefs is the ONLY way. Some don't want to think they made you believe anything, and they want you to make up your own mind to what you believe. Like me, now if you ask me I'll answer the best I can without feeling like I influenced you in your beliefs. Like for the longest time I thought there was only 1 way to meditate. To sit on a mountain top wrapped up like a pretzel humming a strange tune. Well not really but I hope you know what I mean. Meditating that way simply doesn't work for me. But then someone told me there's other ways to meditate. They didn't tell me how or what to do. But I figured out a way to meditate that actually works for me. I feel spiritually is very personalized to you. One size don't fit all.

'I simply started listening and let the information come to me '

Then it becomes a Happening rather than a Doing.... That is how I also Meditate 99% of the time as it works for me

[hallow]

Originally Posted by sky123

'I simply started listening and let the information come to me '

Then it becomes a Happening rather than a Doing.... That is how I also Meditate 99% of the time as it works for me

hahaha! Yes. Took me a while to learn just to listen.

[sky]

Originally Posted by hallow

hahaha! Yes. Took me a while to learn just to listen.

I'm sure your. Mum often said, ' Are you listening to me '
but you didn't listen

[hallow]

Originally Posted by sky123

I'm sure your. Mum often said, ' Are you listening to me '
but you didn't listen

Yes she did, then she got frustrated and said figure it out for yourself. So I did.

[sky]

Originally Posted by hallow

Yes she did, then she got frustrated and said figure it out for yourself. So I did.

Excellent, Mum knows best....

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by hallow

I used to like to ask a lot of questions. Because I wanted to learn ,95% of the time with no real answers. The other 4% were so out there I didn't get it. Even asked people to dumb things down for me. Hahaha. Even then, I got so frustrated with it. And I stopped asking questions, and simply started listening and let the information come to me. It's a different mind set. There's a lot of reasons why people don't like to answer questions. Some don't simply know the answer and don't want to look dumb, some people think other's are just being dumb and don't want to take the time to explain because they think everyone should know it. Talking spiritual beliefs is a extremely sensitive subject. Some feel there being looked down on for believing what they do some think there being challenged and in there mind there beliefs is the ONLY way. Some don't want to think they made you believe anything, and they want you to make up your own mind to what you believe. Like me, now if you ask me I'll answer the best I can without feeling like I influenced you in your beliefs. Like for the longest time I thought there was only 1 way to meditate. To sit on a mountain top wrapped up like a pretzel humming a strange tune. Well not really but I hope you know what I mean. Meditating that way simply doesn't work for me. But then someone told me there's other ways to meditate. They didn't tell me how or what to do. But I figured out a way to meditate that actually works for me. I feel spiritually is very personalized to you. One size don't fit all.

Your statement that "one size don't fit all" is right on target. Every one is unique and every one must choose the pathless path best suited to them.

There are obviously many reasons why some people won't answer questions directly, and you've highlighted several of them in your post. Some simply don't know but refuse to admit that.

I have been fortunate to have explored many paths with some practices dominating over the others because they are best suited to me personally. I see at least some truth and validity in all paths and have developed an understanding of why some are drawn to one path as opposed to another. When discussing various traditions with others, I focus on that which is positive and ignore the "nonsense" but, if some religion is harming others, I definitely speak out. I don't try to convince anyone of anything ... but I will ask questions and have discovered that, by asking serious insightful questions, false belief systems crumble of their own accord. I also ask people how one can validate their interpretations, and that often stuns them into silence or into reflection.

I've noticed that even the most advanced masters (outwardly) do not always have the depth that one would expect. At one time in my life, I wanted to immerse myself in a SAFE, moderate Islamic country so I chose Jordan. I went to the mosques and asked questions. The imams and shaiks could answer my basic questions but, when it went deeper, they were at a loss for words. They invited me to dinner at a local mansion. When I arrived there with them, there were about 40 people there for dinner. Then, in walked the Grand Islamic Shaik and the elders to sit at the master table and I was seated next to the Grand Islamic Shaik in an attempt to intimidate me. (It was almost as if they were saying, "Ask your questions now, smart-aleck". LOL) Instead, we had an awesome dialogue as everyone listened intently. I used Islamic terminology and went directly to the thrust of Islam, which means "surrender" (to Allah) and listening to the "Voice of God". This led to the topic of the stillness and how one enters the stillness and how one can discern between the "Voice of God" (the higher power) and one's own personal stuff. (Having practiced under a great sage from India, this was very familiar ground and my practice had focused on this.) At one point, the Shaik was clearly becoming a tad uncomfortable as I believe that his depth limits were being reached. He then said, "This has been a great dialogue and we must exchange e-mail addresses to stay in touch. However, everyone is hungry so let's eat now". At that point, having essentially received the stamp of approval from the Shaik, the young men in the congregation approached me and asked where I was planning to go in Jordan. One by one, they offered to take me to all of my intended destinations and actually treated me (Arab hospitality is impossible to deny). I am still in touch with several of these young men. (Obviously, in an Islamic country, one hangs out with men and is very careful about interactions with women. Hanging out with men is much safer and much more appropriate in Islamic countries for the most part.)

After the encounter with the Shaik, I mentioned this to my soul-mate when I returned to NYC. I was legitimately surprised that this great Shaik was not as deep as I had thought. My soul-mate, who is the successor to my own teacher, then reminded me that our mutual spiritual mentor was one of the strongest sages in India and that our training made us very capable of discussing the depths of meditation with the "great ones" throughout the world. Now, I no longer make assumptions, but gauge from the reactions of others how deep one can go as one leaves them with "one more thing" upon which to contemplate. The depth of many so-called gurus came as a big surprise to me but is no longer surprising. Having said that, I have been fortunate to have met sages that have exceeded my own depth and some of them communicated in complete and utter silence. One learns from all.

P.S. As for sitting meditation, I once would sit for up to 8-9 hours on weekends (when I wasn't working and had more time). I did not force myself to sit that long. Instead, I found myself so absorbed in a point that my spiritual mentor had raised that the time just passed and I was totally stunned that so much time had actually elapsed. Now, however, I rarely do sitting meditation as that practice has given way to other forms of meditation. Ironically, once my meditation patterns changed, I came across a Ramana Maharshi statement quoted by David Godman. "Sitting in meditation for extended periods at precise times is for the merest of spiritual novices." Years before, that statement would have shocked me but, when I heard it, I immediately understood. My sense is that you have discovered the same thing.