Is it possible to take spirituality too far?

Originally Posted by Baile

Adolf Hitler. Pol Pot. Idi Amin. History is full of examples of human beings who took things too far. So the idea and concept of "taking something too far" is in fact quite real. It happens. And thank goodness those individuals stopped there, that was way more than far enough. Past that, the only discussion is if this fact of (external human) reality and life, also applies to (inner human) spiritual development. And I will agree that is an open question, and that further conversation on that point is needed.

You’re blaming Adolfo hitler for the holocaust?
What about everyone else who participated. Who allowed it to happen.
Millions of people had to be on that same frequency of hate or sorrow for that to happen. Some believe those souls willingly participated on both sides.

There is one law no one can break and that is free will. You speak much of karma but only see one side of that karma? You only see the SS and Adolf. Do you see how many souls had an opportunity to repay all the things they did in prior lives?

No one can do anything to you without your permission.

Even that wasn’t to far. Even that served a purpose. It was an ugly way to do it. But it wasn’t too far. What about all the higher races watching us? What about the creator? What about the races that live among us? None of them stepped in. Even the race that engineered humans. They watched and didn’t step in...

I’m not saying what was done was righteous. But what I am saying is there is not limit that can be considered too far in the scope of karma and spiritual growth. No matter how horrible an act is. It’s serving a purpose for both the one doing and the ones receiving. Your higher self and guides usually steer you away from what isn’t meant for you.. something else to ponder..

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

You’re blaming Adolfo hitler for the holocaust?
What about everyone else who participated. Who allowed it to happen.
Millions of people had to be on that same frequency of hate or sorrow for that to happen. Some believe those souls willingly participated on both sides.

There is one law no one can break and that is free will. You speak much of karma but only see one side of that karma? You only see the SS and Adolf. Do you see how many souls had an opportunity to repay all the things they did in prior lives?

No one can do anything to you without your permission.

Even that wasn’t to far. Even that served a purpose. It was an ugly way to do it. But it wasn’t too far. What about all the higher races watching us? What about the creator? What about the races that live among us? None of them stepped in. Even the race that engineered humans. They watched and didn’t step in...

I’m not saying what was done was righteous. But what I am saying is there is not limit that can be considered too far in the scope of karma and spiritual growth. No matter how horrible an act is. It’s serving a purpose for both the one doing and the ones receiving. Your higher self and guides usually steer you away from what isn’t meant for you.. something else to ponder..

I understand and relate to everything you wrote here (minus the "race that engineered humans" part... I'll have to think long on that one). Lots of wisdom there, as much as I've seen packed into one post in a long time!

Still, I leave a reflective-questioning window open to the idea that the worst human behaviours of this sort, did not in fact have to happen. Did not have to take place. Possibly were real and avoidable mistakes of human evolution; mistakes that to some degree, and possibly even seriously, have interfered with human evolutionary progress.

I'm thinking here of one spiritual stream of wisdom I used to study. The idea was presented that human evolution is a kind of limited-time proposition. That the human soul collective has a limited time to evolve its consciousness, before this current cycle of evolution collapses in upon itself, and the next cycle begins.

The heirarchies, according to this stream of wisdom, have a blueprint for humanity's evolution. And every step humanity takes -- every human activity -- directly affects and therefore determines how much of that blueprint plan will be fulfilled during this cycle of evolution. It is said humanity can indeed fail to fulfill what the heirarchies would have humanity accomplish. And if humanity fails, those evolutionary impulses will be lost forever.

Not that I believe such things one way or the other. I only share this to show there are many ways to look at these questions.

[_dagmar_]

Originally Posted by Mystik

So I went to this place that was supposed to have meditation. However, I got more than I bargained for. I just wanted to see what it was all about and there was no charge. However, the "teacher" went on about all these deep spiritual things that don't really have much to do with meditation. At one point he asked if I was a space man or something like that and told me that aliens were standing behind me. I didn't really know what to say.

:)

Originally Posted by Mystik

Anyway, he also said something like there's no such thing as time and everything is happening at once and that things just bounce around. I've heard the time is not linear thing before. Fine. But when he said Jewish people were volunteering for the holocaust and stuff like that(I guess he saw it as karma) as well as the aliens are standing behind me and abduct me in my sleep I think that's maybe just going a bit too far. Maybe this guy wants an emotional reaction out of people I'm not sure.

While the self imposed guru only accepts relationships that do not threaten his superiority, the guru empathizes deeply with other beings and hates being perceived as superior.

The self imposed guru will show in such a way that he stands out from others just to stand out from others. The guru will show in such a way that he is comfortable without trying to stand out from others in such a way that may make others feels uncomfortable.

The self imposed guru feels that everything evolves around him where he is the central point of attention while the guru does the opposite.

The self imposed guru succeeds in diluting people that are labile and will show aggression towards those that defy him while the guru does not preach his truth and shows willingness to learn towards those that defy him.

Originally Posted by Mystik

My point is that although I consider myself spiritual I get frustrated when I go to events like this and hear people say stuff that just seems to go too far and seems too far out there. Does anyone else on here think it's possible to take things too far and be so far into spirituality that you lose touch with reality?

Spirituality can go too far if one looses contact with reality and enters a psychosis. Or when it becomes an obsession that negatively impacts ones ability to maintain healthy relationships with others where one feels superior or feels to hold the only truth that discards any other viewpoints.

Most people that call themselves spiritual will enter a psychosis at least once in their lifetimes.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by _dagmar_

Spirituality can go too far if one looses contact with reality and enters a psychosis. Or when it becomes an obsession that negatively impacts ones ability to maintain healthy relationships with others where one feels superior or feels to hold the only truth that discards any other viewpoints.

That to me is the simple, straight-forward truth of the matter. I would catagorize psychosis caused by obsessive spiritual beliefs as taking spirituality too far.

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by Baile

That's the inner-wisdom answer. But again, spirituality in and of itself is nothing.

I don't understand, i would have understood if you said its everything or can be seen as everything, unless you think everything is nothing, like some actually do.

Originally Posted by Baile

Rather, it depends entirely on the individual. The individual who is not ready -- who is not prepared from an inner moral development perspective -- can take things to far and suffer real issues as a result.

Ok yea people could possibly take things to far for them as individuals for where they are at, at one time. like telling someone who is hiking for the first time to go do the hardest path there is instead of start with something light, its wise to go slower an build things up over time maybe.., yea, there is another approach to just dive right into things and work with stuff as it comes, some say that could be unwise but people work differently. Its like people can study things and all that, but on the other hand they can just jump off the cliff with it, i think, and i always bring this up, balance.. of both those things because some people might just read, study things an research and others might just not do that an want to experience but a balance of both can be good.

People learn differently for example in the schools we have those ADHD kids, they are not going to learn the same way as other kids, the idea of sitting down reading memorising an studying will not work so well with them, some are more hands on in there learning they need to do stuff, some are study an reading, others do better when they listen an take things in visually, people have different ways of learning..

Originally Posted by Baile

That's what fundamentalism is: it's an illness of the mind resulting from a lack of inner preparedness. It's spirituality taken too far, by the student who is simply not ready from a healthy-consciousness POV.

Yea well when i said it can't be taken to far, it was to do with spirituality and i didn't think of religion when i thought of spirituality. I had to google this word fundamentalism to understand what it means, i didn't really know, so its holding onto beliefs, yes some beliefs can be blocks, they dont even have to have anything to do with religion or spirituality too. If someone says "i cant swim" then there pushed into a pool they might have to swim though.. unless they actually cant, have not studied an learnt as mentioned before, but sometimes some one might believe they cant when they are capable.. its not all black an white, yea ur right.

Originally Posted by Baile

I am aware an argument can be made that people can't take things too far, because we are always given what we are ready to handle. But now we're adding in the karmic element, which opens things up to a much broader exploration than just the limited question presented here. Because yes, one's karmic path in this lifetime may well be to fall into the fundamentalist mind-trap, in order to learn a particular soul-lesson. In which case, the question must be asked: Does that demonstrate how a student might not be ready, and in the process take their spirituality too far? Or is all perfectly appropriate because it's aligned with that individual's karmic path?

iv asked pretty much the same question before, do we create things or is it meant to happen regardless of what we do or dont do? i think its like that till we change it or till we change ourselves, it seems like life happens to us and things are out of our control till we learn to understand things better an take control and command the universe instead of asking helplessly for its help, and theres many levels to this too. I feel like yes some karmic stuff is what we come in with, and maybe some things are meant to happen but still we can work with what we've got in multiple ways for many different outcomes.

Originally Posted by Baile

And I can point to and suggest all of that because I went though it this lifetime! I'm now in post-fundamentalism recovery.

Congratulations, good job.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

You’re blaming Adolfo hitler for the holocaust?
What about everyone else who participated. Who allowed it to happen.
Millions of people had to be on that same frequency of hate or sorrow for that to happen. Some believe those souls willingly participated on both sides.

If Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations have anything to do with it, yes, but often the barrier to that particular understanding is that morality rears its head (and a low-lever morality according to Lawrence Kohlberg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawren...al_development
By the way, karma (depending on your definition) fits on there too.


What doesn't seem to be so widely understood by Spiritual people is that the frequencies of hate and sorrow are still very much rampant today and that they didn't die with Hitler - they just scattered across the globe and faded from sight. The Holocaust is well known few talk about the Falun Gong practitioners, for just one instance.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

There is one law no one can break and that is free will.

That's very much up for debate, and while it's a lovely Spiritual ideology it's not necessarily factual. You don't actually make a conscious decision, those are processed in your subconscious by 'committee' and 300ms (although times can vary, I've also read it to be 70ms) later you're conscious of having made it. Your so-called 'lizard brain' makes the first call and it's based on survival not Spirituality.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

You speak much of karma but only see one side of that karma? You only see the SS and Adolf. Do you see how many souls had an opportunity to repay all the things they did in prior lives?

In the original Sanskrit 'karma' meant 'action' and still does today - according to many outside of this forum, it seems. The 'things they did' comes from human morality and not Spirituality, and it's also at odds with your saying that no one can do anything to you without your permission.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

I’m not saying what was done was righteous. But what I am saying is there is not limit that can be considered too far in the scope of karma and spiritual growth. No matter how horrible an act is. It’s serving a purpose for both the one doing and the ones receiving. Your higher self and guides usually steer you away from what isn’t meant for you.. something else to ponder..

In this I'd whole-heartedly agree with you and in the context of my own Life's history, and it's pretty apt considering where I am at the moment. This is a time to put my Spiritual money where my Spiritual mouth is.

Originally Posted by Baile

I understand and relate to everything you wrote here (minus the "race that engineered humans" part... I'll have to think long on that one). Lots of wisdom there, as much as I've seen packed into one post in a long time!

Still, I leave a reflective-questioning window open to the idea that the worst human behaviours of this sort, did not in fact have to happen. Did not have to take place. Possibly were real and avoidable mistakes of human evolution; mistakes that to some degree, and possibly even seriously, have interfered with human evolutionary progress.

I'm thinking here of one spiritual stream of wisdom I used to study. The idea was presented that human evolution is a kind of limited-time proposition. That the human soul collective has a limited time to evolve its consciousness, before this current cycle of evolution collapses in upon itself, and the next cycle begins.

The heirarchies, according to this stream of wisdom, have a blueprint for humanity's evolution. And every step humanity takes -- every human activity -- directly affects and therefore determines how much of that blueprint plan will be fulfilled during this cycle of evolution. It is said humanity can indeed fail to fulfill what the heirarchies would have humanity accomplish. And if humanity fails, those evolutionary impulses will be lost forever.

Not that I believe such things one way or the other. I only share this to show there are many ways to look at these questions.

Astronomers say there’s 40 billion planets that could be habitable. To some this planet is considered the living library. Basically other races study what we have done and gone through for an example of what to do and what not to do. Even the lower life forms offer a lesson and things to learn for other planets and life forms in their development.

Also on the grand scheme of things, negative usually triggers the most growth. Most spiritual people enlightened or not have gone through the dark to find the light. Most find spirituality during painful times. So looking back, the last 100 or 200 years may have caused a snowball of collective growth beyond what could have been otherwise. Maybe we’re better off now because of what happened.

Even the story of Atlantis where they knew the meteor was coming and had the technology to stop it but the ancient seer’s advised against it. Supposedly they saw things worse the other way. They didn’t want to go against the natural order of things.

Maybe your perspective is on point with the past. Maybe those moments were an interference with the natural order. we’ve been on a roll as a species lately. Even now there is a large mass of people kept asleep and plugged into their screens and eating whatever is fed to them. How much could our example help others? I would like to think higher forms would step in if we were going too far. Especially if you figure we’re all connected even on a cosmic level. At that point I’m sure our planet collectively is adding a great deal of energy to the universal consciousness and would not be tolerated.

One could also take the perspective of this all being dreamt up by us singularly and collectively making what is being done matter a little less. Kind of like believing in reincarnation and letting go of fear of death. With this thought process life is then a game. Creating more attention to the present in a completely different way.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

If Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations have anything to do with it, yes, but often the barrier to that particular understanding is that morality rears its head (and a low-lever morality according to Lawrence Kohlberg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawren...al_development
By the way, karma (depending on your definition) fits on there too.


What doesn't seem to be so widely understood by Spiritual people is that the frequencies of hate and sorrow are still very much rampant today and that they didn't die with Hitler - they just scattered across the globe and faded from sight. The Holocaust is well known few talk about the Falun Gong practitioners, for just one instance.


That's very much up for debate, and while it's a lovely Spiritual ideology it's not necessarily factual. You don't actually make a conscious decision, those are processed in your subconscious by 'committee' and 300ms (although times can vary, I've also read it to be 70ms) later you're conscious of having made it. Your so-called 'lizard brain' makes the first call and it's based on survival not Spirituality.



In the original Sanskrit 'karma' meant 'action' and still does today - according to many outside of this forum, it seems. The 'things they did' comes from human morality and not Spirituality, and it's also at odds with your saying that no one can do anything to you without your permission.


In this I'd whole-heartedly agree with you and in the context of my own Life's history, and it's pretty apt considering where I am at the moment. This is a time to put my Spiritual money where my Spiritual mouth is.

I’ve been told that I’m oblivious to what’s going on around me while in groups of people. The reason being is I’m usually in my own world enjoying something amazing like crows battling away a hawk. Or a fly bugging people and making me laugh. All while there is a police raid going down in front of me. People getting beat up or harrased.

My point is my universe won’t deliver me into anything I’m not vibrating with consciously or unconsciously. A few people told me I could frolick through an active war zone chasing butterflies unscathed. It’s funny but true.

If I’m vibrating in a state of sorrow and pity that I’m giving permission for more to happen to me to creat that same exact feeling. And this I know from experience as well.

And also how could I believe in reincarnation and believe that if anyone starts to go against my free will I couldn’t just press the reset button. Not that there isn’t a million ways to combat or even avoid the situations by way of controlling yourself and you’re personal world. But again we’re taught and conditioned to believe we don’t have any power. Those that manipulate and walk a fine line of going against our free will can only go so far. And obviously are completely successful because there’s millions of people who think they don’t control their own lives. And think they are a result of their world and that their world isn’t a result of them.

And yes I know what karma means. Spent a whole year learning about just karma at my own personal expense. Anything that happens to me this life I planned on prior to incarnation. So if I die a horrible death even get tourtured prior to death I’ll know on a soul level I planned for something of that magnitude to take place. Nothing is set in stone and when we divert from the plan another path pops up that had similar results. Hence why some choose to be born in certain households with certain situations knowing it will be tough. But they aren’t focused on how hard it will be they are focused on what they will gain from that life experience. The memories. You must also understand if we’re eternal and powerful enough to manifest whatever we wish wouldn’t being happy and sunshine with cupcakes and smiles get old after a few lifetimes? Any good movie or book offers some conflict otherwise it wouldn’t be interesting.

We can’t be eternal and be oblivious to what is going on prior to any of our incarnations. Why would any soul choose to be born in a country still engulfed in genocide or one that is being manipulated by the one percent. Why even choose this planet at all for that matter? This would be karma and free will let alone spiritual progression.

Side note. I assume you mentioned lizard brains referring to the modifications they’ve done to us. As they aren’t the ones who engineered us. We were originally designed with a 12 strand DNA chain. It is believed that the “lizards” modified us to help control us and keep the planet steered in the direction they chose. This isn’t even going against our free will as they didn’t manipulate our souls. Just the bodies we use to enjoy this drama.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

One could also take the perspective of this all being dreamt up by us singularly and collectively making what is being done matter a little less.

Yes, Hermeticism speaks of human life and existence as the dream of the All Mind. So we are a dream. But it also speaks about the laws of half-wisdom, the above and below, and the divine paradox of the absolute and the relative. We are a dream, is the absolute truth. We are quite real, is the relative truth.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

I’ve been told that I’m oblivious to what’s going on around me while in groups of people. The reason being is I’m usually in my own world enjoying something amazing like crows battling away a hawk. Or a fly bugging people and making me laugh. All while there is a police raid going down in front of me. People getting beat up or harrased.

My point is my universe won’t deliver me into anything I’m not vibrating with consciously or unconsciously. A few people told me I could frolick through an active war zone chasing butterflies unscathed. It’s funny but true.

The phrase is "commensurate with your Higher Self". That means nothing that will take you too far away from your Life's purpose will happen to you, so if it's not in your Life's Purpose to get your tail blown off you can frolic on the battlefield until the cows come home. When it's your time to go you're gone, whether you're frolicking in the battlefield or not. Enjoying being in your own world simply means you enjoy being in your own world, nothing more.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

If I’m vibrating in a state of sorrow and pity that I’m giving permission for more to happen to me to creat that same exact feeling. And this I know from experience as well.

That's one way to put it, another way is the law of attraction.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

And also how could I believe in reincarnation and believe that if anyone starts to go against my free will I couldn’t just press the reset button. Not that there isn’t a million ways to combat or even avoid the situations by way of controlling yourself and you’re personal world. But again we’re taught and conditioned to believe we don’t have any power. Those that manipulate and walk a fine line of going against our free will can only go so far. And obviously are completely successful because there’s millions of people who think they don’t control their own lives. And think they are a result of their world and that their world isn’t a result of them.

I'm confused, we seem to have very different definitions of 'free will'.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

Anything that happens to me this life I planned on prior to incarnation. So if I die a horrible death even get tourtured prior to death I’ll know on a soul level I planned for something of that magnitude to take place. Nothing is set in stone and when we divert from the plan another path pops up that had similar results. Hence why some choose to be born in certain households with certain situations knowing it will be tough. But they aren’t focused on how hard it will be they are focused on what they will gain from that life experience. The memories. You must also understand if we’re eternal and powerful enough to manifest whatever we wish wouldn’t being happy and sunshine with cupcakes and smiles get old after a few lifetimes? Any good movie or book offers some conflict otherwise it wouldn’t be interesting.

No arguments there.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

We can’t be eternal and be oblivious to what is going on prior to any of our incarnations. Why would any soul choose to be born in a country still engulfed in genocide or one that is being manipulated by the one percent. Why even choose this planet at all for that matter? This would be karma and free will let alone spiritual progression.

I agree with that too.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

Side note. I assume you mentioned lizard brains referring to the modifications they’ve done to us. As they aren’t the ones who engineered us. We were originally designed with a 12 strand DNA chain. It is believed that the “lizards” modified us to help control us and keep the planet steered in the direction they chose. This isn’t even going against our free will as they didn’t manipulate our souls. Just the bodies we use to enjoy this drama.

The 'lizard brain' is a term used to describe the limbic system of the brain, and it's one of the most primordial parts of the brain, mostly concerned with survival. Frankly, for brain manipulations I'd go with the Annunaki and the Mayans, who said that humans were created by gods. The Sumerian myths in particular say that there was genetic modifications going on - as does the Bible but then Genesis is a virtual rewrite of the Enuma Elish anyway. If you look at the second chromosome - it's responsible for the frontal lobe, pretty much - then you'll see it looks as though it's been grafted on.