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  #1  
Old 20-04-2018, 12:33 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Emotive Language Used In Discreditation

Namaste and greetings.

I'm of the opinion that most human beings are a pretty sneaky lot and often resort to using underhanded subliminal hypnosis tactics when it comes to influencing the minds (and hearts) of others on the spiritual path...not giving their fellow sentient beings any credit whatsoever for being able to use their select discernment...but in many cases, this is also justified, as I have witnessed the majority will just 'cave in' to these sneaky measures.

For example, there is one motivational speaker on Youtube I really enjoy listening to...not that she is my 'guru' and I don't 'hang on her every word'...but the way Teal Swan just cuts through all the spiritual 'sugar coating' and New Age hype to get to the crux of the issue, dressed in Gucci...using no uncertain terms to do so...is so refreshing for me and challenges me intellectually...I mean, certain people just 'speak to us' in 'our language' and so the vibration resonates...oh yes, it does.

Now, for as many admirers that she has, she also has just as many detractors, of course...but I always notice that people who have no logical retort to the actual content of a lecture, will often resort to using terms like: "don't let yourself be misled by this person" which immediately insinuates that you are being 'misled' already and according to humans/society, being 'misled' is a very bad and dangerous thing...something to be avoided at all costs...and so, people play on this concept and say "if you don't want to be misled, you should listen to us" but who is not to say that they are the ones doing the whole 'misleading'? and yet, language is used to force people into a position whereby they start unfairly questioning themselves on another's insistence.

It is also noticed when another will say "you are foolish if you honestly believe that" which puts you straight on the horns of a dilemma...you either admit that you don't believe it, so as not to appear 'foolish' because being 'foolish' is almost as bad as being 'misled' and in the whole gamut of spiritual merchandising, the whole insecure 'guilt trip' sells big time...and so you can say "yes, I am foolish and being misled...but I am also 100% secure within myself and happy being ignorant, so what's your excuse?"

Then of course there's the 'spiritual people don't do that/behave that way' and I get to say "okay, I am not spiritual, so?" because, I have realised long ago, what another person merely perceives that I am according to cognitive bias, I am NOT, no matter how much they believe and insist that I AM...stating that they know me much better than I know myself, so their way is totally 'right' for me...what a load of unmitigated tripe! and yet many who are not emotionally secure within will fall for it and flit from belief to belief, never satisfied because they listen to others and not themselves in regards...and of course there is what I call the 'outcast ploy' which attacks the very deep human need to be appreciated, accepted and feel 'part of the gang' when a 'spokesman for the human race' will chime in with "everybody believes this, or "I speak for all members here when I say..." and this is very sneaky because if you express a different opinion, you are 'going against the flow' and it's also called the 'bandwagoning effect' which can lead to ostracizing if the bandwagoner is of high social or financial status within the group.

Then, there are those who will say "don't listen to Guru X, he/she is a fraud" and will not supply any evidence, or only hearsay as to why...but if the media latches on, 'guru X' becomes 'guilty as charged' when they may/not have done whatever is merely alleged, but in any case, the guru's message speaks for itself, despite any actions of the messenger, leading me to realise there must be a lot of jealous and vindictive people out there.

So just a heads up, whenever somebody says "don't listen to him/her" the best response is "why should I listen to you" as the 'quest for 'likes' can create some fierce competition sometimes, with innocent people caught in the crossfire.
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  #2  
Old 20-04-2018, 02:02 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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The funny thing is, I've learned from even those who have proven to be frauds lol
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CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA

The cessation of identifying with the fluctuations arising within consciousness
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  #3  
Old 20-04-2018, 02:26 PM
Lorelyen
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It’s right to raise such a question even if it may seem paradoxical in itself. Experience sometimes tells a person that doubt does exist in some teachings. Your Teal Swan example: I too hold her in respect. The instructional side of her programs seem very good…but then she can spoil it with a quasi-promise that could turn out impractical. An ex-bf drew my attention to her Opening the Third Eye video. Fine. Try it out. It may work for you it may not. However, she is sure of her approach. At the close she says (paraphrased, I forget the exact words) don’t worry if it doesn’t happen immediately. It may take a couple of weeks!

Experience and discussion with others across time and on spiritual practices tells me that could lead to disappointment. It can take some people YEARS before they can relax enough and train their minds to stillness enough to meditate successfully. It can take them as long to open the third eye. So….one has to say, not everything she gives forth is appropriate. I do like her though.

I have no issue with someone pointing out false logic. Or a new belief system that’s based on a factoid presented in a form that hints you’d be idiotic or wrong not to believe it. No one wants to believe they’re silly so they accept it then go on to accept a dogma built on it. (Not everyone, of course. Some people will spot that the fact isn’t a fact and smile at the trick underlying the statement).

I’d also be concerned when I spot an inconsistency or contradiction often buried in a barrage of words. It leads one to think that the author/guru hasn’t thought their presentation through and that their system or theory won’t actually work. It can’t.

Or something that’s plain wrong like a youtube thing I found with all sorts of claims about listening to a tone of 528Hz which would (one site claims “repair your DNA”. Aside from the sheer nonsense of the claim (which is set to make people think their DNA is broken all over the place and they should do something about it) – and here’s your solution) transform you. I’ve news. The fundamental wasn’t a single frequency which would be a sine tone but I measured it and it was something like 545Hz. People do get conned.

Is it in bad form to draw these things to others’ attention? Isn’t it part of the dielectic exchange? I’ve been told often enough to rethink a practice or subsidiary aim before now and been glad of it. Others may feel upset but then, I do believe that as one moves on one learns discernment and thinking what their told through.

For all that, people are entitled to their beliefs whether they work for others or not, and for themselves with or without delusion. As they progress they’ll soon find out. As is often said, people can make grimoires of almost anything if they make the effort.

pax luxque tecum.

.
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  #4  
Old 20-04-2018, 02:26 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
The funny thing is, I've learned from even those who have proven to be frauds lol
Yes, I can understand the sentiment there, but what precedent of a 'spiritual standard' is set and by whom in regards to the allegations of fraudulent behaviour when no laws are being broken in regards?

I shall take the case of Swami Nithyananda...now, I have watched a few of his lectures, never formed any opinion one way or the other about him...suffice to say that his lectures were so long and boring, I fell asleep...if anything he helped with my insomnia.

Swami Nithyananda made many good points, but it took him so long to get to them, I simply realised that his style and methods were not my 'cup of tea' even though I also fully realised he may help and be of use to others who could tolerate his quirks, eccentricities and the penchant for continually digressing so far from the original topic that even he forgot what he was talking about...but that was just me.

After a while, a video emerged on youtube of a girl performing oral sex on him and there was a big hoo hah...a huge outcry, with many calling "fake Guru" and I didn't think he was one way or the other...I couldn't even care less, to be honest...but the Indian media latched on...he was arrested for a 'misdemeanour' without any proof...and even so, it's not illegal for two adults to have consensual sex, no matter who they are.

After a while, another party came forward saying they fabricated the whole thing with actors, photoshopping techniques etc to discredit the 'guru' and fessed up...showing the world what they did and how it was done...funny thing is, nobody believed that the 'fake' was a 'fake' because the guru was a 'fake'...the media aired no apology/retraction...the authorities did not apologise for falsely arresting Swami Nithyananda...and I learned a very important lesson about human bias and conditioned behaviour.
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  #5  
Old 20-04-2018, 02:52 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
It’s right to raise such a question even if it may seem paradoxical in itself. Experience sometimes tells a person that doubt does exist in some teachings. Your Teal Swan example: I too hold her in respect. The instructional side of her programs seem very good…but then she can spoil it with a quasi-promise that could turn out impractical. An ex-bf drew my attention to her Opening the Third Eye video. Fine. Try it out. It may work for you it may not. However, she is sure of her approach. At the close she says (paraphrased, I forget the exact words) don’t worry if it doesn’t happen immediately. It may take a couple of weeks!

Experience and discussion with others across time and on spiritual practices tells me that could lead to disappointment. It can take some people YEARS before they can relax enough and train their minds to stillness enough to meditate adequately. It can take them the same lengths to open the third eye. So….one has to say, not everything she gives forth is right. It needs (to use your word) discernment.

I have no issue with someone pointing out false logic. Or a new belief system that’s based on a factoid presented in a form that hints you’d be idiotic or wrong not to believe it. No one wants to believe they’re silly so they accept it then go on to accept a dogma built on it. (Not everyone, of course. Some people will spot that the fact isn’t a fact and smile at the trick underlying the statement).

I’d also be concerned when I spot an inconsistency or contradiction often buried in a barrage of words. It leads one to think that the author/guru hasn’t thought their presentation through and that their system or theory won’t actually work. It can’t.

Or something that’s plain wrong like a youtube thing with all sorts of claims about listening to a tone of 528Hz which would (one site claims “repair your DNA”. Aside from the sheer nonsense of the claim (which is set to make people think their DNA is broken all over the place and they should do something about it – and here’s your solution) transform you. I’ve news. The fundamental wasn’t a single frequency which would be a sine tone but I measured it and it was something like 545Hz. People do get conned.

Is it in bad form to draw these things to others’ attention? Isn’t it part of the dielectic exchange? I’ve been told often enough to rethink a practice or subsidiary aim before now and been glad of it. Others may feel upset but then, I do believe that as one moves on it’s up to themselves to learn discernment and thinking what their told through.

For all that, people are entitled to their beliefs whether they work for others or not, and for themselves with or without delusion. As they progress they’ll soon find out. As is often said, people can make grimoires of almost anything if they make the effort.

pax luxque tecum.

.
Very wise and relevant words in relation to this discussion. Thank you kindly.

Of course, there are a lot of 'questionable' things on the Internet/Youtube and one cannot believe everything they see or hear, as there is no definitive proof in the face of anonymous ambiguity.

I am glad you made the reference to the claims made about certain 'healing frequencies' or the claims and timeframes involved with others saying that a certain technique will 'work' or not...even IF it does and yet, I always read the comments in regards and notice how it will appear to work for some and not others...and yes, I guess it's also human nature for those who it did NOT work for to say "this technique failed for ME, ergo, it will fail for EVERYONE, and so, others are just being 'naive' or it is the 'placebo effect' or just 'wishful thinking"...and yes, I also agree that in most cases, it would take longer than 3 weeks to open the third-eye and so that issue should be raised and not the moral character of the teacher for expounding it...or they could simply say "I disagree with Teal Swan because of..." and let the viewer make that informed decision.

The reason why I am glad you raised the whole 'frequency hoax'...a few months ago, I became quite intrigued...this person on Youtube demonstrated they created a 'wormhole' to another dimension by playing dual harmonic frequencies of 525 hz (iirc)...let me find that link, as it had me going for a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKYlXS_DHJg

Now, although skeptical, it still intrigued me, as I am heavily into sound techyonics and vibrational levitation and wondered IF such a thing could, indeed, even be possible.

After watching this, I also saw many videos of others who tried exactly the same thing, but got nothing...and then I watched how a phone app could create this whole effect, thus debunking the whole scenario...for I also subscribe to the whole 'scientific method' in that for an experiment to be proven/confirmed, it must have the ability to be repeated/replicated at least 3 times and nobody else was able to pull it off...and thus, the video was a well-made, elaborate hoax, which could be proven via the use of technology...but there is nothing which can prove a 'spiritual hoax' in that spiritual stuff cannot be proven anyway.
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  #6  
Old 20-04-2018, 03:26 PM
SaturninePluto SaturninePluto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Namaste and greetings.

I'm of the opinion that most human beings are a pretty sneaky lot and often resort to using underhanded subliminal hypnosis tactics when it comes to influencing the minds (and hearts) of others on the spiritual path...not giving their fellow sentient beings any credit whatsoever for being able to use their select discernment...but in many cases, this is also justified, as I have witnessed the majority will just 'cave in' to these sneaky measures.

For example, there is one motivational speaker on Youtube I really enjoy listening to...not that she is my 'guru' and I don't 'hang on her every word'...but the way Teal Swan just cuts through all the spiritual 'sugar coating' and New Age hype to get to the crux of the issue, dressed in Gucci...using no uncertain terms to do so...is so refreshing for me and challenges me intellectually...I mean, certain people just 'speak to us' in 'our language' and so the vibration resonates...oh yes, it does.

Now, for as many admirers that she has, she also has just as many detractors, of course...but I always notice that people who have no logical retort to the actual content of a lecture, will often resort to using terms like: "don't let yourself be misled by this person" which immediately insinuates that you are being 'misled' already and according to humans/society, being 'misled' is a very bad and dangerous thing...something to be avoided at all costs...and so, people play on this concept and say "if you don't want to be misled, you should listen to us" but who is not to say that they are the ones doing the whole 'misleading'? and yet, language is used to force people into a position whereby they start unfairly questioning themselves on another's insistence.

It is also noticed when another will say "you are foolish if you honestly believe that" which puts you straight on the horns of a dilemma...you either admit that you don't believe it, so as not to appear 'foolish' because being 'foolish' is almost as bad as being 'misled' and in the whole gamut of spiritual merchandising, the whole insecure 'guilt trip' sells big time...and so you can say "yes, I am foolish and being misled...but I am also 100% secure within myself and happy being ignorant, so what's your excuse?"

Then of course there's the 'spiritual people don't do that/behave that way' and I get to say "okay, I am not spiritual, so?" because, I have realised long ago, what another person merely perceives that I am according to cognitive bias, I am NOT, no matter how much they believe and insist that I AM...stating that they know me much better than I know myself, so their way is totally 'right' for me...what a load of unmitigated tripe! and yet many who are not emotionally secure within will fall for it and flit from belief to belief, never satisfied because they listen to others and not themselves in regards...and of course there is what I call the 'outcast ploy' which attacks the very deep human need to be appreciated, accepted and feel 'part of the gang' when a 'spokesman for the human race' will chime in with "everybody believes this, or "I speak for all members here when I say..." and this is very sneaky because if you express a different opinion, you are 'going against the flow' and it's also called the 'bandwagoning effect' which can lead to ostracizing if the bandwagoner is of high social or financial status within the group.

Then, there are those who will say "don't listen to Guru X, he/she is a fraud" and will not supply any evidence, or only hearsay as to why...but if the media latches on, 'guru X' becomes 'guilty as charged' when they may/not have done whatever is merely alleged, but in any case, the guru's message speaks for itself, despite any actions of the messenger, leading me to realise there must be a lot of jealous and vindictive people out there.

So just a heads up, whenever somebody says "don't listen to him/her" the best response is "why should I listen to you" as the 'quest for 'likes' can create some fierce competition sometimes, with innocent people caught in the crossfire.

You know this may be a whole other spiel entirely here, but for some odd reason I feel the relevance. Where especially others will tell you don't listen to him or her. With me in daily life I come under this deranged type of scrutiny by others, only I am constantly told by others do not say this, that, do not express anger etc etc. I find something else I am told by others highly amusing, I am constantly told I am like this one or that one by family much of the time. Whether it is you are just like mom, or you are just like your father, or you are just like your aunt etc etc and on and on.

I am merely under the impression these people closest to me do not even KNOW me.

Your part where you say "I am foolish for believing this". Well I feel like this as well at times. Where here I will write my ideas on the demonic being evil via my own well informed personal experiences and you will write how you do not understand humans feeling the demonic as evil, and the demonic conversations you get on your recording equipment and your questions to the entities indicate to you they are not.

While I am here, having my own conversations with the things and personal experiences, and I begin to doubt things. In all other respects I respect your views, but disagree with this.

But this does not mean merely because I disagree with one view of yours that I have opposing and differing experiences with, that everything else you say is false.

See?

So others disagree with someone you relate to, respect?

Man, said respectfully, but screw it.

Why put so much stock in what others think of someone that you may admire? You feel (Know) that you admire them. That's really all you need.

There is often something I tell myself in regards to others whom try to dictate how or what I should think, and whom otherwise attempt to mold me into what is acceptable for them, and there are many sensitive souls here who may not like my exact choice of wording, but I believe many here are intelligent enough to get the point- without taking undue offense and this thing I tell myself is- Do not adhere to the opinion of swine.

It may sound insulting, but personally after suffering years of listening to the thoughts, complaints, and grievances of others I've come to my own realization and it is simple.

People whom try to mold me into what they consider acceptable in utter disregard of whom I want to be and how I feel sadly I must view them as not remotely being human anymore.

In my heart I know what is right and wrong.

And in my heart I know trying to force another into what you'd be more comfortable with- isn't high up on my list of "Right".

So I'll chalk it up to massively deceived brainwashed swine, and realize an important lesson.

Opinions don't matter.


All my best to you, Shivani.
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  #7  
Old 20-04-2018, 03:35 PM
Nature Grows Nature Grows is offline
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Good post OP, yea teal swans alright, i haven't seen to many of her videos though maybe 6-7 all up.
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  #8  
Old 20-04-2018, 04:39 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Upon reflection and reading the reply given by Saturnine Pluto and also re-reading Lorelyn's response, I also appeal to logic when I see it, as this is the way I operate.

Yes, people respond to the critique of others based on their own personal experiences and for some who already understand the score, they may be more liberal and tolerant towards things they see, rather than others who have not had that experience and only base their assumptions on what they know, which may be little to nothing at all - yet they expect others to also be in that same category.

There also exists some kind of resentment towards others who appear 'sure of themselves' and speak from both experience and conviction, which will prove to be of little consolation or comfort to those who have not had those same experiences - and of course, if I feel and understand that something may be of benefit to me, I will take notice and if not, I simply will not - no matter what another says, but then again, I'm also the type who isn't easily swayed by 'public opinion' if I feel that just 'does not apply' within.

I always say that when God made me, he 'broke the mold' and maybe my shortfall is thinking that others may be fickle and easily influenced by those who use ignorance as a weapon in the fight for some kind of consensual agreement based on a shared 'non-experience'....and it could be the case that they are appealing to the conscience of others who honestly don't know any better either.
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