In depth discussion on breath meditation

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by In Flux

So when you feel during the meditation that your mind is being pulled into a daydream, or into planning your shopping list, do you just let it go there, or do you manipulate your situation by focussing the mind on the breath again?

Hi, I am new here ... but ...

What I do is refocus back to the breath. IF the breath is what I am meditating on... if its just being in an observational state, I would allow my thoughts, and the thinker thereof, to go wherever they go.

But if its the breath, I stay right there on it. Not like a mental death grip, but just be there with the breath. There are many ch'i practices that work this way, it takes some effort, some "yoga" if you will, but the results are good.

[Mr Interesting]

Originally Posted by Gem

People will notice that being aware of their breath starts to make the mind slow down, but this more like 'you' coming to a stop (which you alluded to), which is where it starts to be no avoidance, no pursuit, just this breath as it is in the way it feels right now. The discussion basically is about what comes up after that.

Yes, what comes after that? As I've been meditating so long and started with a simple counting technique given to me by my Dad nearly forty years ago then, after reading The Power Of Now (about 6 years ago), and basically just stopping thinking as I'd been pretty much working up to it for years, whilst at the same time (along the way) kind of encouraging thinking as a tool for intuition, as in being able to put space around it and therein kind of sense the depths from which it came... or was more shallow, so for some reason I can't actually observe thought. As soon as I do it stops.

Though I think what that is is that I've already been observing for years anyway except it was intuitive so then when I apply that 'consciousness' that is me it is almost going from observation already to something else which might be an already well developed 'okayness' with the results of not thinking.

To me that seems to be the crux, as it were, that subconsciously we all are so reliant on thinking that without the sense of how life is without it, a catch twenty two, it's difficult and possibly even scary to 'embrace' the possibilities of non thought.

So Indeed breath meditation, as simply as that, provides us with the 'area' to become comfortable within the parameters of non thinking and a more intuitive life. And also that all those other techniques, mantra's, focusing etc ( I'm not particularly familiar with such) all add to the sense already in control, the thinking, but slightly modified except it doesn't ever do the real job of getting us to where it's not just a little better, and of a validity more to do with the internal convincing, but hugely better when existence just opens right up!

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Mr Interesting

Yes, what comes after that? As I've been meditating so long and started with a simple counting technique given to me by my Dad nearly forty years ago then, after reading The Power Of Now (about 6 years ago), and basically just stopping thinking as I'd been pretty much working up to it for years, whilst at the same time (along the way) kind of encouraging thinking as a tool for intuition, as in being able to put space around it and therein kind of sense the depths from which it came... or was more shallow, so for some reason I can't actually observe thought. As soon as I do it stops.

Indeed. If you stop to observe thought, then it isn't you who is thinking. Similarly, observe breath without breathing intentionally. It's like the breeze that touches your skin. If you stop to observe breathing you necessarily observe it intentionally, so in that sense, it isn't the cessation of thought. It is more like the still point from where mind is revealed to oneself.

After that, the inability to stop and just watch reveals the reactive compultions that perpetuate the incessant mind. Most overlook this, being primarily distracted by desire for a special spiritual experience, distracted from the truth of what's going on for themselves. The meditation is only about discovering the truth of things, so people ought to pay attention to what comes up, even if that arising is the desire I just mentioned. The meditation is, then, in this particular example, the noticing of, and not the attainment of, one's desires. Yes, reflecting on what you said, it stops because it is noticed, and can no longer go by unawares.

Though I think what that is is that I've already been observing for years anyway except it was intuitive so then when I apply that 'consciousness' that is me it is almost going from observation already to something else which might be an already well developed 'okayness' with the results of not thinking.

Yep, meditation is OKness with everything. Most people are not, but I don't judge that, as people can be the way they are, and I'm OK with it.

To me that seems to be the crux, as it were, that subconsciously we all are so reliant on thinking that without the sense of how life is without it, a catch twenty two, it's difficult and possibly even scary to 'embrace' the possibilities of non thought.

Yes indeedy.

So Indeed breath meditation, as simply as that, provides us with the 'area' to become comfortable within the parameters of non thinking and a more intuitive life. And also that all those other techniques, mantra's, focusing etc ( I'm not particularly familiar with such) all add to the sense already in control, the thinking, but slightly modified except it doesn't ever do the real job of getting us to where it's not just a little better, and of a validity more to do with the internal convincing, but hugely better when existence just opens right up!

I find I can not observe the spontaneous mind and say a mantra at the same time, simply because I can't be non-volitional and volitional at the same time. I only ever advocate the non-volitional meditation, even though breath observation is intentional - though breathing occurs unintentionally. This is my contradiction, but it's borderline, and not so much two things in contradiction, but a necessary contradiction inherent to reason.

I like to say the end is in the beginning, and it is that 'prior to' that I try to get at, though this speech is after the fact. I think that a conversation can end at the beginning in that way, as the mind follows the discourse to the place it begins, where it ends.

Its only purpose is to bring to an end what one was once was compelled to start. The startending. The breath is there, in the same way the breeze touches the skin, not before and after itself, but at the same time as it is. Sensation without duration.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by baro-san

3-4-or more lengthen breath cycles are widely used in inducing hypnosis.

It's really a simple difference between seeing it as it is or making it as you want it to be.