Enlightenment

[Shivani Devi]

Namaste.

I don't know anything about enlightenment, but from what I understand about it, is if there is a desire to achieve anything through the ego, enlightenment will not even happen. If there is an agenda, attachments, the desire for siddhis etc, seekers will be very satisfied getting only half way there and then honestly believe they have "reached the goal" or have "attained Moksha" when nothing could be further from the truth.

This is why the saints and sages say all of those things, to discourage the insincere and selfish seeker...but it tends to have the opposite effect...tell someone "nothing to see here...move on" and they think the person is hiding something from them...coveting an experience and thus human curiosity dictates they need to find out for themselves...then when they do, they laugh and go "he was right all along".

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

Hello iamthat,
While fulling agreeing with you, this me believes that any effort to "reach' there is counterproductive. It can only happen

I understand what you are saying. It is a common belief, particularly with the neo-advaitists, that striving for spiritual attainment gets in the way of actual spiritual attainment. But from my own experience, effort is required, right up to the point where all effort is surrendered along with everything else.

After all, did the Buddha not make an effort to reach enlightenment?

An excerpt from Introduction to Buddhism by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso:

Siddhartha then made his way to a place near Bodh Gaya in India, where he found a suitable site for meditation. There he remained, emphasizing a meditation called “space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya” in which he focused single-pointedly on the ultimate nature of all phenomena.

After training in this meditation for six years he realized that he was very close to attaining full enlightenment, and so he walked to Bodh Gaya where, on the full moon day of the fourth month of the lunar calendar, he seated himself beneath the Bodhi Tree in the meditation posture and vowed not to rise from meditation until he had attained perfect enlightenment.

... Siddhartha then continued with his meditation until dawn, when he attained the vajra-like concentration. With this concentration, which is the very last mind of a limited being, he removed the final veils of ignorance from his mind and in the next moment became a Buddha, a fully enlightened being.

Peace.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Each micro-ascension assimilated within consciousness is an awakening, an enlightenment, the embracebaility of which becomes a pattern of receptive unexpectancy ...

***

[Joe Mc]

Here's a nice take, a tune, by the brilliant poet and singer Van Morrison. Appropriately titled, Enlightenment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOUilsuZj1E :)

[Uday_Advaita]

Originally Posted by iamthat

I understand what you are saying. It is a common belief, particularly with the neo-advaitists, that striving for spiritual attainment gets in the way of actual spiritual attainment. But from my own experience, effort is required, right up to the point where all effort is surrendered along with everything else.

After all, did the Buddha not make an effort to reach enlightenment?

An excerpt from Introduction to Buddhism by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso:

Siddhartha then made his way to a place near Bodh Gaya in India, where he found a suitable site for meditation. There he remained, emphasizing a meditation called “space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya” in which he focused single-pointedly on the ultimate nature of all phenomena.


After training in this meditation for six years he realized that he was very close to attaining full enlightenment, and so he walked to Bodh Gaya where, on the full moon day of the fourth month of the lunar calendar, he seated himself beneath the Bodhi Tree in the meditation posture and vowed not to rise from meditation until he had attained perfect enlightenment.

... Siddhartha then continued with his meditation until dawn, when he attained the vajra-like concentration. With this concentration, which is the very last mind of a limited being, he removed the final veils of ignorance from his mind and in the next moment became a Buddha, a fully enlightened being.

Peace.

Lord Buddha is often quoted to have said:
"Events happen, deeds get done. There is no individual doer thereof"
There is neither a me nor a you nor any one doing, achieving, reaching anything. Source is all there is.
Deepest conviction of personal Non-doership .... is Peace

[NoOne]

Regarding the element of surrender vs conscious effort in enlightenment, there is a fine balance that needs to be achieved. It is true that the process can’t be forced. Yet, it needs true, honest intention from the part of the seeker. The trick is in learning to let go.

Enlightenment would actually happen to everybody reading this, in an instant, if we all knew how to allow it to happen. It is our natural state of being, but we are so used to holding it back and clenching our emotional-energetic body into knots of neurosis, fear and hangups, that we can’t imagine letting go even for a second. It is worth practicing the art of letting go when you meditate. I usually do it with each exhalation, start from my throat and „release” downwards. When I do it right, there is a noticeable release of energy upwards, from the lowest chakra, almost as in a lightning bolt. This then tends to build up in the crown chakra as intense light and heat.

[Shivani Devi]

How I see it, is like this...

In my own tradition and upbringing (based on Patanjali), Sadhana is necessary for enlightenment and to realise the Self.

It isn't about attaining or arriving anywhere, but to peel away the layers of conditioning...to rid oneself of accumulated samskaras and habits one has developed over countless lifetimes.

If there is no effort... nothing to be done, what is stopping the "average Joe" from getting Moksha this very instant?

Having said that, I have heard many of the Neo advaitins say there's nothing to do...nowhere to reach...etc, but that is their path and not mine...and if there is anything I have learned on my spiritual journey, it is that everybody's path is unique, different and subjective.

So, if they can obtain enlightenment by merely saying that they have, good for them, but this is not my way....and we will all find out after we shrug off this mortal coil, who is gonna come back for another go around and who ain't...and nothing can be said about this while we are still alive, so that Marathi saying is quite apt.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

Hello Moondance. Truly appreciate your views. The way this MBA (i.e. me) understands this as:
1. Mind-Body is an Apparatus, where Body is accumulated food and mind is electronic circuitery with accumulated memory. It has appeared and will disappear in horizontal time
2. Person, Ego, Self and me are identifications with a Mind-Body. Hence conceptual.
3. Source is all there is
Happening of this - Total conviction of above - is worth

Yes, this sounds about right to me. But just to reiterate an important point, the use of ‘me’ and ‘person’ is context dependent. If by me/person we are simply referring to a specific body-mind then this is a legitimate practical device. However, if me/person is used in reference to a supposed enduring self then this is a misapprehension since no such thing exists.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

Lord Buddha is often quoted to have said:
"Events happen, deeds get done. There is no individual doer thereof"
There is neither a me nor a you nor any one doing, achieving, reaching anything. Source is all there is.
Deepest conviction of personal Non-doership .... is Peace

Indeed. But do you know this just on an intellectual level? Or is this your everyday reality as a state of Being?

The problem with modern day advaitism is that many people understand the ideas on a mental level but have not had any shift in consciousness to make these ideas a reality. So they can repeat all the words but remain in ignorance.

Peace.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

How I see it, is like this...

In my own tradition and upbringing (based on Patanjali), Sadhana is necessary for enlightenment and to realise the Self.

It isn't about attaining or arriving anywhere, but to peel away the layers of conditioning...to rid oneself of accumulated samskaras and habits one has developed over countless lifetimes.

If there is no effort... nothing to be done, what is stopping the "average Joe" from getting Moksha this very instant?

Having said that, I have heard many of the Neo advaitins say there's nothing to do...nowhere to reach...etc, but that is their path and not mine...and if there is anything I have learned on my spiritual journey, it is that everybody's path is unique, different and subjective.

So, if they can obtain enlightenment by merely saying that they have, good for them, but this is not my way....and we will all find out after we shrug off this mortal coil, who is gonna come back for another go around and who ain't...and nothing can be said about this while we are still alive, so that Marathi saying is quite apt.

Agreed. I sometimes wonder if some of these neo-advaitins are simply lazy - they don't want to make any effort and they hope that realisation will just happen.

And for a path which is based on the idea of nothing to do and nowhere to reach, there seems to be a lot of books and youtube videos talking about doing nothing and going nowhere. I guess that someone must be doing something.

Having said that, I totally agree that the Self does nothing and goes nowhere. But somehow we have to realise the Self, otherwise all we have are ideas. Which is where sadhana comes in.

Peace.