Science Makes God Unnecessary

[Sammy]

I think this is what God wanted, to be able to be seen as equal. He was probably tired of supporting our a**'s by himself. What life would that be for him anyway if everyone had to come to him for everything. He gave us each our own light to find how he is in us, and we can do the same. Like the bible story says in temptation to eat the fruit "you will become a God like him". So far has anything EVER turned out to be what you expected? He seems to enjoy doing that... *cough* Jesus *cough* Also brings to mind "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence".

3dnow, As a young man, I was something of a math and science, particularly chemistry, whiz, but when I went off to college, I decided to pass on a career in the sciences. Although I still have a great appreciation of the sciences, I have also developed interests in such things as spirituality, religion, history, philosophy, the nature of consciousness, utopian communities, love and other subjects.

In my ongoing quest for information, I have joined a number of online forums dedicated to Christianity, atheism, lifestyles, spirituality, etc., and I continue to be an enthusiastic student of life. After considering everything, I still think that there is a higher power/energy/intention/force/consciousness/whatever that I call God.

I have run into many people who want to put science on a pedestal and assign attributes to science that it clearly doesn't deserve. For starters, I am constantly reminded at how little science can actually really explain, much less prove. There is an attitude that is offered up that sounds something like "Well, yes, science only has answers for certain things right now, but if we have faith in science, somebody it might have more answers for us." Doesn't that sound a lot like what the religious folks have to offer up?

Yes, the scientific method is a wonderful thing, but in actual practice in the real world, science is filled with human error, backstabbing colleagues who will steal research, influence of special interests and quite a few other things. Science, on its pedestal, may be a very pure thing, but in actual practice, it is quite flawed, and, often, given to a certain kind of thinking in which scientists ignore many ideas and concepts without really considering them.

I've got to say, many of the religious folks and the would-be spiritual types don't help the ongoing discussions by denying evolution and by offering up a plethora of new age, self help, human potential, get well mumbo jumbo. I believe that a God exists, but if God created everything, is it so hard to get next to the idea that God created the evolutionary process?

Science hardly makes God unnecessary, at least until such time that science can offer a much better case for the so-called "clear-thinking, rational, scientific" world view. It's easy for non-believers to demand evidence from others, but, funny thing, those same non-believers have absolutely no evidence to offer up themselves. (Yes, I'm familiar with that thing about not being able to prove a negative.)

After considering everything (an ongoing process), I still think God exists, and I can make a "beyond a reasonable doubt" case that works for me. Even if it were true that science makes God unnecessary, the question of whether or not God exists is not about what is necessary, it is about what is.

Hey folks,

Forgetting about God for a second, he says "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

I found this fascinating ... I wish I could understand

3dnow

3dnow, There are certain people who achieve a certain rock star status (i.e. Einstein, Sagan, Hawking, etc.) in science and other areas. While I do not question that Hawking is quite brilliant and has contributed greatly to the present body of ideas, concepts, theories, etc. that relate to our conceptions of the universe, let's also admit that he is far from infallible. Back in 2004, he had to admit that he was absolutely wrong about some of his ideas about black holes. Once again, there is a tendency on the part of some to put science and certain scientist on pedestals that they do not deserve.

Originally Posted by LaMont Cranston

3dnow, There are certain people who achieve a certain rock star status (i.e. Einstein, Sagan, Hawking, etc.) in science and other areas. While I do not question that Hawking is quite brilliant and has contributed greatly to the present body of ideas, concepts, theories, etc. that relate to our conceptions of the universe, let's also admit that he is far from infallible. Back in 2004, he had to admit that he was absolutely wrong about some of his ideas about black holes. Once again, there is a tendency on the part of some to put science and certain scientist on pedestals that they do not deserve.

It is just a theory I found interesting (I was hoping to learn something here) but hey if you don't like it you don't like it

3dnow

Originally Posted by aKuna

God is a term/word/name given to what others in religions name it. Science sees and refers to differently.....call it God / Source / Life Force / Oneness/ Light / Photon Energy or Particles / Unified Field / Consciousness it is all the same.....just a matter of how one perceives it via their belief system which defines it to them according to that belief.

I think this is partly true.

For instance, prayer has been documented to have some kind of beneficial effect in healing. Science is researching to try to find the specific effect it has, and of course, what is causing it. Religion proposes it already has the answer and so it doesn't question it.

The good thing about faith is that it allows us to harness the power of (prayer / intention / the universe, etc.) without the interference of doubt and uncertainty. Because we can see that prayer is beneficial. But the questionable part is when religions tell you they know the source to be X,Y,Z. Speculations of things being caused by "God's wrath" or "demonic possession" throughout history have proven to be inaccurate, magical thinking to explain what at the time was undiscovered science. Religion never seems to be interested in research. I often ask myself why these institutions would be against finding an explanation if there truly is one.

The reason (I think) is that the religions lose their power and authority over anything that can be explained by science. A volcano erupts, we do not go to the church and pray for forgiveness anymore. A child in a psychotic break can now be treated in a medical facility instead of subjected to an exorcism. The more humans understand about existence, the less they rely on a church for their security.

To me, the things we are beginning to understand about the science of consciousness and the mind and the universe are spectacular, mystifying and awe inspiring. If the churches were actually interested in human development, I would think they would be interested in this research. Imagine a comprehensive understanding of the nature of "God", with the ability to harness its power and use it for our own betterment and the elevation of mankind.

Oh, wait a minute, that's what the church tells you it already has. So why don't they want me to have it too?

3dnow, I also find what Hawking has to say to be quite interesting. For me, it is not about what I do or do not like, it is about what Hawking and others can actually prove vs what is mostly speculation. What I see in much of science is pure speculation.

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by 3dnow

Hey folks,

Forgetting about God for a second, he says "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

I found this fascinating ... I wish I could understand

3dnow

This might help... maybe.

Originally Posted by LaMont Cranston

3dnow, As a young man, I was something of a math and science, particularly chemistry, whiz, but when I went off to college, I decided to pass on a career in the sciences. Although I still have a great appreciation of the sciences, I have also developed interests in such things as spirituality, religion, history, philosophy, the nature of consciousness, utopian communities, love and other subjects.

In my ongoing quest for information, I have joined a number of online forums dedicated to Christianity, atheism, lifestyles, spirituality, etc., and I continue to be an enthusiastic student of life. After considering everything, I still think that there is a higher power/energy/intention/force/consciousness/whatever that I call God.

I have run into many people who want to put science on a pedestal and assign attributes to science that it clearly doesn't deserve. For starters, I am constantly reminded at how little science can actually really explain, much less prove. There is an attitude that is offered up that sounds something like "Well, yes, science only has answers for certain things right now, but if we have faith in science, somebody it might have more answers for us." Doesn't that sound a lot like what the religious folks have to offer up?

Yes, the scientific method is a wonderful thing, but in actual practice in the real world, science is filled with human error, backstabbing colleagues who will steal research, influence of special interests and quite a few other things. Science, on its pedestal, may be a very pure thing, but in actual practice, it is quite flawed, and, often, given to a certain kind of thinking in which scientists ignore many ideas and concepts without really considering them.

I've got to say, many of the religious folks and the would-be spiritual types don't help the ongoing discussions by denying evolution and by offering up a plethora of new age, self help, human potential, get well mumbo jumbo. I believe that a God exists, but if God created everything, is it so hard to get next to the idea that God created the evolutionary process?

Science hardly makes God unnecessary, at least until such time that science can offer a much better case for the so-called "clear-thinking, rational, scientific" world view. It's easy for non-believers to demand evidence from others, but, funny thing, those same non-believers have absolutely no evidence to offer up themselves. (Yes, I'm familiar with that thing about not being able to prove a negative.)

After considering everything (an ongoing process), I still think God exists, and I can make a "beyond a reasonable doubt" case that works for me. Even if it were true that science makes God unnecessary, the question of whether or not God exists is not about what is necessary, it is about what is.

Well said

Originally Posted by hippocratie

The problem with all this God religion stuff is that it requires and actually demands a bit of faith.

Actually, it does not.. when god told you to leave haiti in december 2009.. was that faith?

When god miraculously healed that tumor was that faith?

When god delivered that car you finally wanted was that faith?

Faith is a word of hope.. but it is not a word of conviction.. faith is really more.. "well, I hope this happens"

The one thing science won't even tackle or look at (or has but has discredited) is "law of attraction"

"Law of attraction" is the proof you seek that is more than faith (hope) based..

One of our biggest problems and still exists today is those that believe in god.. believe they are LESSER than god.. god is on pedestal.. and I am a lesser being.. when in fact are new age religion teaches us.. we are all equal to god.. or in fact we are all god

Originally Posted by hippocratie

The difference is that the scientist normally claims to actually understand a lot of the THEROIES that we are asked to base our whole existance on.

Interesting thing about science is there just theory's.. but yep, they get excepted as fact a lot.. science reserves the right to turn the theory on its head.. probably shock a hell of a lot of people as it starts to make corrections on theory's that are wrong.. when they have the balls to do it!

The marriage between science and spiritualism is coming.. but it's still gonna take a while from what I read..

Originally Posted by DulcePoetica

Imagine a comprehensive understanding of the nature of "God", with the ability to harness its power and use it for our own betterment and the elevation of mankind.

Such a understanding already exists.. we call it or I call it new age

But one must also acknowledge that all of mankind has "choice" and so you can't force people to improve themselves.. you must honor their free will.. the interesting thing is when people want to improve themselves.. the ENERGY is already there and available.. and they turn into it and use it..