What does it mean to love? To love ....

Greetings..

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

~smiles~Umm, I be AC, Tzu
Then you and I differ again. I enjoy the "debris", because I get to see more of the person whom is expressing it.
Then equally is it possible that you are also losing sight by your beliefs, and\or focus on his, according to your perception, his proactive defense and beliefs about you?

Tzu, and I am not referring to Humm or anyone specific, if I choose to confront someone I will do so openly and directly...
Tzu, I see clearly when a person takes a subtle pot shot at me, trying to bait me emotionally, divert away from the issue, side step with irrational words or behavior, and all the other stuff.
I simply don't react to it. I just keep to the the discussion that I assumed the person wanted to discuss.
Like i said, I do not dispute your decision, just discussing it.
When a person challenges me I simply enquire as to why, or i just leave it and continue with the discussion.
When I do enquire I am genuinely interested as to why they are doing so.
My initial theory as to why a person attacks me, or even my ideas for that matter is they feel threatened and the old fight/flight system kicks in.
They will either avoid or attack.

If I can discover why they feel threatened, I can adapt my word usage so they will not feel threatened.
If something I am doing, unintentionally because i do not know why they feel threatened,
if I am doing this, I wiould like to find out what freaks them out, thus change, thus they won't freak out and we can then have a more open and honest discussion.

It doesn't bother me when a person attacks me, I'm not going to do anything that will warrant "consequences in this forum for certain behaviors"
I appreciate their openess and honesty to express what they think and feel.
But Tzu, when a person attacks you personally, they are openly and honestly doing so to the best of their ability.
There's your open and honest discussion, discuss that with them, it's obvious they want to.
They are looking at it from their perspective, you are looking at it from your perspective.
Who decides if someone else is objective enough or not?
Are they unwillingly doing so, or are struggling with inner issues\wounds that restricts them?
What status quo? Does a status quo have power over an individual?
Reconcilliation is never pointless. It may be a long and hard road through the "debris" to reach it, but it's worth it.
Of course there is no guarantee of success, but one will never know success is achievable if one does not try.
If you are aware you are also responsible for the "mess", what "debris" are you bringing to the table and what changes are you implimenting?

Hi AC: Sorry about the confusion.. I am pleased that you have found a way that works for you, and.. i am equally pleased that i have found a way that works for me..

Reconciliation is never pointless, it simply reaches a point of diminishing returns.. i am interested productive conversation that doesn't insist that specific language and meanings dominate the participant's ability to contribute.. i am interested conversing with people interested in looking at 'what is', rather than telling me what 'is' is.. understanding that by 'fixing' a belief as being this or that, the ability for that observation to reveal itself in alignment with an expanded awareness and consciousness of evolution is confined by the attachment to the belief about what it 'is'.. that may have been tough to follow, but i hope people will try to understand the message..

Be well..

[Papa Bear]

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Greetings..


Hi Papa Bear: The question i will pose represents my own understanding and its relationship to your first paragraph, above.. i am curious as to why the broad brush of 'Love' is used when you so articulately expressed very nuanced descriptions of 'feeling' the experiences of 'Life'.. the broad brush of 'Love' is fertile with misunderstandings, why not explore the fine details of nuanced expressions which can illuminate the rich diversity of feelings.. the word 'Love' seems like a fall-back position or a catch-all term to avoid the adventure of exploring or really discovering the depth of our relationships with each other and with Life.. anyway, that's my perspective, not an assertion of truth, but an invitation for discussion..

Be well..

Hi Tzu, what about this for a starter;
If love is caring, for if we do not care we do not love, we may explore the many levels caring formulate. Like the automatic reaction, to `fill up` in sympathy, at the sight of another`s tears of hurt or sadness, or the smile which forms, as a reaction to a strangers smiling happiness, even to the simplicity of a yawn, caused by the yawn of another. What produces the caring that manifests these simple reactionary sympathies, or empathies? Are we more the same than different, under all the external camouflage of presentation? Do we not care about the same things, seek them out, when a comedian tells a joke, why is the laughter a unified response, when the team scores the winning goal, where do all the differences that existed minutes before the game even started, disappear to, when strangers embrace in sporting celebration, in happiness and cheer?

I think what`s underneath, or more within, that makes us feel the same, is the substance which truly identifies what binds us, in the same life, at the same time, seeking the same happiness and peace of mind. Seeking each other, to find the elusive depth of caring, that is still just as automatic, just as instinctive, but more intense, because it is shared, even when found, it is often its loss, that quantifies its powerful effect. Is there any Mother who does not completely empathise and understand, when viewing either the extreme of happiness, brought by the first embrace between a new Mother and new child, or the deepest sadness at its loss? Is there a Father, who observes another Father playing with his son, that does not recognize the hidden pride and happiness, oozing in invisible waves of pleasure.

Our days pass quickly, the older you get, the quicker they go, but a moment can last much longer, when it is filled by such reflections in real time. In a life filled with chosen aims, of learning to know and understand, why the sky is blue, or when the universe began, we miss, in such a hurry, the very essence of the feelings we create in each other, in trivial and spectacular ways, that tell us so much, that we say we want to know, but too often, there`s somewhere else to go. The Parent is busy so the child is left alone, someone asks for help, but I`ll just answer the phone, we turn away as quick, when there`s something else to do, but what happens when the need if felt by you. I`m getting a little flow of rhyme so maybe that`s the time, to recognize I am drifting into the sublime, could I allow myself a personal reflection, and maybe bend a rule, and include a poem from an old fool.


My Angel

Her breath of life begins, in the dreams, love and passion, that two lover’s fashion. A true expression of the essence of caring, natures ultimate gift in human sharing, that shapes an evolution of creation which unfolds a new revelation. An expectant pair of parents to be, filled with excitement at every stage they can see, watching nature take her true course, a new life starts a journey from source.

As time filled growing expands, new thoughts and feelings create demands, both anxious doubts and excited preparation, add to the racing heartfelt feelings of anticipation, of him or her or you and me in the making of a family tree. And so the time grows closer to a new arrival, priorities and fears focus on survival, love and life of an expectant wife inseparable from a new born child’s strife.

Then in a moment’s crescendo of emotions delight, a cry breaks into daylight, all pain and suffering fall aside, replaced with life’s purest experience of love and pride. A Daughter has arrived and raised my heart, as my emotions fall apart, through tears of overwhelming joy, no matter a girl or boy, as realisation sinks in they are both safe and secure, as everything else becomes obscure.

In those timeless moments of Spiritual bliss, as I give her a first kiss, her eyes open wide with a life’s first measure, in my arms the purest treasure, shares and feels my ultimate pleasure. Our shared journey begins on sacred ground in a new love I have just found, she will grow into a little miss, but always be the source of my hearts bliss, and though we may call her Sharon, Donna or Leanne she will always be, an Angel to me.

[Papa Bear]

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

~smiles~ Again, you're welcome.
Thought it is not I that has empowered you.
Yes i have offered intel, and i do not dimmish the importance of this act,
but it is you that has empowered yourself by recieiving the intel and using it.
If you did not recieve and use, no empowerment, yes?

Empowerment comes from within, not without.
Empowerment is when self engages one's own infinite energy to whatever one choose to channel it through.

I could not agree more, but still without the caring to share, I could not use what I did not have.

Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I could not agree more, but still without the caring to share, I could not use what I did not have.

Hence my acknowledgement...

Originally Posted by AC

Yes i have offered intel, and i do not dimmish the importance of this act,

Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Hi AC, I never doubted your capacity to look outside the box,

It never entered my mind you were thinking I could not.

Did human beings love each other, before the word love or the rationality of it exist?

Don't know. Was not there when these things did not exist in the minds of people.

Is self- love a selfish experience as compared to a selfless shared love?

Loving oneself is an experience and loving others is an experience.

Is there a difference between, being in love and loving?

Each person is free to formulate their own meaning to their experiences via thought, thus judge for themselves if there is a difference or not.

Can love start and stop?

A person is free to love and free to not love.
Can love itself have the capacity to start and stop itself? I do not know what love really is, all I have is my interpretation of it.

Is there a difference between receiving love, and giving love?

An individual can only express from their experiences. Some may say yes and some may say no.

Can love be lost?

If something exists, it has potential to be lost.

If one does not know love, how do they find it?

Search for it.

Greetings..

Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Hi Tzu, what about this for a starter;
If love is caring, for if we do not care we do not love, we may explore the many levels caring formulate. Like the automatic reaction, to `fill up` in sympathy, at the sight of another`s tears of hurt or sadness, or the smile which forms, as a reaction to a strangers smiling happiness, even to the simplicity of a yawn, caused by the yawn of another. What produces the caring that manifests these simple reactionary sympathies, or empathies? Are we more the same than different, under all the external camouflage of presentation? Do we not care about the same things, seek them out, when a comedian tells a joke, why is the laughter a unified response, when the team scores the winning goal, where do all the differences that existed minutes before the game even started, disappear to, when strangers embrace in sporting celebration, in happiness and cheer?

I think what`s underneath, or more within, that makes us feel the same, is the substance which truly identifies what binds us, in the same life, at the same time, seeking the same happiness and peace of mind. Seeking each other, to find the elusive depth of caring, that is still just as automatic, just as instinctive, but more intense, because it is shared, even when found, it is often its loss, that quantifies its powerful effect. Is there any Mother who does not completely empathise and understand, when viewing either the extreme of happiness, brought by the first embrace between a new Mother and new child, or the deepest sadness at its loss? Is there a Father, who observes another Father playing with his son, that does not recognize the hidden pride and happiness, oozing in invisible waves of pleasure.

Our days pass quickly, the older you get, the quicker they go, but a moment can last much longer, when it is filled by such reflections in real time. In a life filled with chosen aims, of learning to know and understand, why the sky is blue, or when the universe began, we miss, in such a hurry, the very essence of the feelings we create in each other, in trivial and spectacular ways, that tell us so much, that we say we want to know, but too often, there`s somewhere else to go. The Parent is busy so the child is left alone, someone asks for help, but I`ll just answer the phone, we turn away as quick, when there`s something else to do, but what happens when the need if felt by you. I`m getting a little flow of rhyme so maybe that`s the time, to recognize I am drifting into the sublime, could I allow myself a personal reflection, and maybe bend a rule, and include a poem from an old fool.


My Angel

Her breath of life begins, in the dreams, love and passion, that two lover’s fashion. A true expression of the essence of caring, natures ultimate gift in human sharing, that shapes an evolution of creation which unfolds a new revelation. An expectant pair of parents to be, filled with excitement at every stage they can see, watching nature take her true course, a new life starts a journey from source.

As time filled growing expands, new thoughts and feelings create demands, both anxious doubts and excited preparation, add to the racing heartfelt feelings of anticipation, of him or her or you and me in the making of a family tree. And so the time grows closer to a new arrival, priorities and fears focus on survival, love and life of an expectant wife inseparable from a new born child’s strife.

Then in a moment’s crescendo of emotions delight, a cry breaks into daylight, all pain and suffering fall aside, replaced with life’s purest experience of love and pride. A Daughter has arrived and raised my heart, as my emotions fall apart, through tears of overwhelming joy, no matter a girl or boy, as realisation sinks in they are both safe and secure, as everything else becomes obscure.

In those timeless moments of Spiritual bliss, as I give her a first kiss, her eyes open wide with a life’s first measure, in my arms the purest treasure, shares and feels my ultimate pleasure. Our shared journey begins on sacred ground in a new love I have just found, she will grow into a little miss, but always be the source of my hearts bliss, and though we may call her Sharon, Donna or Leanne she will always be, an Angel to me.

Hi PB: Excellent!! Why would anyone choose to broad-brush such an inspiring description with a single word like 'Love'.. the loss of depth and feeling and amorphous ambiguity of using a single word, any single word, for that description would diminish the quality and diversity and richness of this brief physical experience.. i hope that we never lose this Art of communicating for the sake of convenience.. thanks.

Be well..

[Papa Bear]

Thank you Tzu, I could not agree more, in fact I have placed a few reflections, in the poetry section in the past, but they highlight my sincere agreement with your reflection.

This is for everyone, but especially for those that have decided to put people on their ignore list, which is 2 that I know of.

I do not share these things to insult, judge or condemn anyone. I share them to inspire you.
Would you not like to have the ability to not be offended by others, to not be affected by externals, events, experiences?

Yeah, I know, a long list of quotes, but it's small compared to the amount i have on my HD.
-------------------------------
Gautam Buddha was surrounded by a crowd that was abusing him, using ugly words, obscene words,
because he was against the organised religion of the Hindus and against the Hindu holy scriptures, the Vedas.
He had condemned the priesthood, saying that these were exploiters, parasites. Naturally, the Brahmans were enraged.

This was a Brahman village through which he was passing, and the Brahmans surrounded him and said every kind of bad thing that they could manage.
He listened silently.
His disciples became angry, but because Buddha was present, it was not courteous for them to say anything.
The master was standing so silent, and listening as if these people were saying sweet things.

Finally Buddha said to them, "If the things that you wanted to say to me are finished, I would like to go on to the next village where people are waiting for me.
But if you are not finished, after a few days I will be returning and I will inform you. Then I will have enough time to listen to all that you want to say."

One man said, "Do you think that we are saying something? We are condemning you !
Do you understand or not? Because anybody else would become angry, and you are standing silently..."

The statement that Buddha made to these village people is immensely significant.
He said, "You have come a little too late. If you had come ten years ago when I was insane as you are,
not a single person would have left here alive."

Ten years ago he was a prince, a warrior, one of the best archers of his time, a great swordsman, and those Brahmans...
he could have removed their heads with a single blow, without any difficulty,
because those Brahmans know nothing about swords or arrows or being a warrior.
He would have cut them almost like vegetables.

He said, "You have come too late. Ten years ago if you had come...but now I am no longer insane; I cannot react.
But I would like to ask you one question.
In the last village, people came with sweets, fruits and flowers to receive me;
however, we take food only once a day, and we had already taken our food.
And we don't carry things, so we had to tell them, "You please forgive us, we cannot accept these sweets, fruits and flowers.
We accept your love, but these things you will have to keep."

"I want to ask you", he said to the angry crowd,
"What must they have done with the sweets, fruits and flowers they had brought as presents for us?"

One man said, "What is the mystery in it? They must have distributed them all throughout the village."

Buddha said, "That makes me very sad. What will you do, because I don't accept what you have brought,
in the same way I did not accept the sweets, fruits and flowers that the people brought me in the other village.
If I don't accept your obscenities, your ugly words, your dirty words...if I don't accept them, what can you do?
What are you going to do with all this garbage that you have come with?

You will have to take it back to your homes and give it to your wifes, to your children, to your neighbors.
You will have to distribute it, because I refuse to take it.
And you cannot make me angry unless I accept your humiliation, your insult.
Ten years ago, I was not conscious; if somebody had insulted me, he would have lost his head immediately.
I had no idea that insulting me is his problem, and that I have nothing to do with it. I can simply listen and go on my way."
---------------------------------------
The Love Chapter: 1 Corinthians 13
1: If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate.
2: If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing.
3-7: If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.

Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
Love doesn't strut,
Doesn't have a swelled head,
Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn't revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.
---------------------------------------------------
"The basic principle of spiritual life is that our problems become the very place to discover wisdom and love." - Jack Kornfield

"All strong souls first go to hell before they do the healing of the world they came here for. If we are lucky, we return to help those still trapped below." - Clarissa Pinkola Estes

"Finding joy doesn't mean that life will always be easy; rather life becomes rich because we live near the pulse of possibility.
To open the door, you can start by saying I am willing. I am willing to feel, to Know, to love, and to expand.
I am willing to let the concrete walls of my beliefs slip away and move into a new level of awareness." - Charlotte Davis Kas

"Many of us spend our whole lives running from feeling, with the mistaken belief that you cannot bear the pain.
But you have already borne the pain. What you have not done is feel all that you are beyond that pain." - Kahlil Gibran

"If you want to follow me to freedom, be prepared to swim upstream, against the river of conditioning.
Be prepared to grapple continuously with the fierce flow of negative mental currents. In time our strokes will become effortless and our sense of purpose irresistible." - Buddha

"A cardinal principle of the Spiritual Warrior is: It is not what is happening that is important; what is important is what you are doing with it. Thus the Spiritual Warrior says, "Regardless of what it looks like, regardless of my perception, I will use everything for my advancement, upliftment, and growth." - John Roger

"Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of the colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. Each time a person stands up for an idea, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, (s)he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." - Robert F. Kennedy

"Everyone makes mistakes. In fact, highly successful, creative people make more mistakes than the rest of us because they're always trying new things and searching for better ways to do them. The difference is, they look their mistakes squarely in the eye, learn from them, and move on. So, cut yourself some slack and accept you are not perfect." - Harry Bloomfield

"The limits you create will be real to you until you learn to step beyond them. Then they will cease to be real. Then, you will look back at the reality you used to inhabit and feel claustrophobic, wondering how you were able to stand its narrow confines." - Paul Ferrini

"By attempting to avoid the responsibility for our own behavior, we are giving away our power to some other individual or organization. In this way, millions daily attempt to escape from freedom." - M. Scott Peck

"You will either step forward into growth or you will step back into safety."" - Abraham Maslow

"Our soul work...is to repair ourselves, to heal into wholeness. It is, simply put, to identify and remove whatever gets in the way of being truly who we are. It is the task of uncovering our authentic self from the encrustations that overlay it, concealing it from us." - M.J. Abadie

"The truth you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new." - Pema Chodron

"You cannot always control what goes on outside. But you can always control what goes on inside." - Wayne Dyer

"The problem is not that there are problems. The problem is expecting otherwise and thinking that having problems is a problem." - Theodore Rubin

"Faith is not trying to believe something regardless of the evidence. Faith is daring to do something regardless of the consequences." - Sherwood Eddy

"People are not disturbed by things, but by the views that they take of them." - Epictetus

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." - Carl Jung

"True freedom is an inward state of being. Once it is attained, no situation in the world can bind one or limit one's freedom." - Jack Canfield

"Why are you so afraid of silence, silence is the root of everything. If you spiral into its void a hundred voices will thunder messages you long to hear." - Rumi

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

"If you're really listening, if you're awake to the poignant beauty of the world, your heart breaks regularly. In fact, your heart is made to break, it's purpose is to burst open again and again so that it can hold evermore wonder." - Andrew Harvey

"I wish I could show you, when you are lonely or in darkness, the astonishing Light of your own Being." - Hafiz

"The key to intimacy is the commitment to honesty and to the radical forgiveness necessary in order for honesty to be safe." - Marianne Williamson

"As you create expectations of people or situations, as you create opinions of what should or should not be taking place with yourself and others, you create your dilemmas." - John Roger

"When I meet new people, in my mind there is no barrier, no curtain. As human beings you are my brothers and sisters; there is no difference in substance. I can talk with you as I would to old friends. With this feeling we can communicate without any difficulty and can make heart-to-heart contact. Based on such genuine human relations-real feeling for each other, understanding each other-we can develop mutual trust and respect. From that, we can share other people's suffering and build harmony in human society." - The Dalai Lama

"It makes no difference how deeply seated may be the trouble, how hopeless the outlook, how muddled the tangle, how great the mistake. A sufficient realization of love will dissolve it all." - Emmet Fox

"The only thing that matters, at the end of a stay on earth, is how well did we love, what was the quality of our love?" - Richard Bach

"Love knows no place it cannot go and no person it cannot bring rest." - Gerald G. Jampolsky

"True love begins when nothing is looked for in return." - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

"A person is buffeted by circumstances so long as he believes himself to be the creature of outside conditions." - James Allen

"People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul." - Carl Jung

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you.
If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." - The Gnostic Christ (Dead Sea Scrolls)

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

"Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness of other people." - Carl Jung

"Ultimately, no one can solve our issues for us; we must liberate ourselves. Our genetic makeup provides the compass, our upbringing sets the compass bearings, and our choices point us towards our destination. Indeed, wherever we are - right here and now - gives us our best opportunity to not only evaluate where we are going wrong, but also to uncover what we are already doing right and keep doing it.

This present moment is the best time for each of us to influence outcomes for the better. There is no guarantee of success or failure, and the risks we presently face are great, but how we fare in the future depends on how each of us decides to act right now - whether we choose to make the positive changes necessary or continue doing more of the same." - Paul Bailey

"Then you have no fear any more...you're completely free." - V from V for Vendetta.

"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world." - Buddha

[Silver]

"Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of the colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. Each time a person stands up for an idea, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, (s)he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." - Robert F. Kennedy

There are so many good ones there, AC. I especially like this one. ^ ^ ^

I highly recommend this movie...Bobby.
I can't recall at this moment if that quote is in the movie, but there are others and they all inspire me deeply.
I watch this movie regularly.