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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Hinduism

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  #21  
Old 22-11-2019, 10:42 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
There is a tale..

One day, a devotee of God was walking along the street immersed in chanting the names of the Lord... endeavouring to see all as an expression of the Divine, when from out of nowhere, a wild elephant appeared and it was charging in his general direction. The mahut (driver) of elephant was making every effort to slow the beast down ..telling everyone to get out of the way ..to run away and find safety from being seriously injured.

However, the devotee stood still in the same place; "elephant is God... Everything is God...so when the mad elephant sees me, it will stop...I will be saved from its rampage..." Well, you can guess what happened next, right?

Next day, devotee was in hospital..broken arms, broken legs and ribs..bruises all over..internal bleeding and his Guru visited the devotee in hospital.."what on Earth happened to YOU?" The devotee related the whole story..how he saw the God inside the elephant, so he thought the elephant would stop and not trample him..

The Guru turned to the devotee and said "well, OBVIOUSLY you never saw the God inside the mahut driver telling you to get the hell outta the way, isn't it?"

Another time...a dam burst and there were great floods everywhere..

The waters quickly rose and a man was trapped upon his roof...a boat came by to rescue him.."quickly, climb on board the boat! The waters are going to rise even more and you will not survive"....well, the stranded man o the roof said "don't worry about me...God will come and rescue me" and so the boat went away, leaving the man where he was...

The waters kept on rising...now the water was up to his waist when along came a helicopter and dropped a ladder "hurry up and climb aboard..we are rescuing you..if you don't come with us, you will surely drown"..however, the stubborn man stayed right where he was.."it is okay .. don't worry, God is going to save me"..and the helicopter went away.

Well, the man eventually drowned and went to heaven and met God...he said to God:

"Where WERE you? Why didn't you save me like I expected that you would?"

God said: "I tried! I really did! I even sent a boat and a helicopter for you..."

This all relates somehow... somehow...

Aum Namah Shivaya

Yes this is to my point exactly :)


x daz x
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  #22  
Old 22-11-2019, 11:42 AM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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...the term "God" is so freely and often used as if many of us are on the same page as to what God is or means; it's true that many of us could agree on a definition such as a higher universal truth and power but that also brings further tangents to define. The catch is that no matter how great the mind it can not really nail down God although it can work with aspects of God. Anyway I like the Taoist saying or pointer along the lines of, The Mystery of mysteries" which remains so, for any Mystery that gets nailed down is brought down.
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  #23  
Old 22-11-2019, 12:16 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handy guy
...the term "God" is so freely and often used as if many of us are on the same page as to what God is or means; it's true that many of us could agree on a definition such as a higher universal truth and power but that also brings further tangents to define. The catch is that no matter how great the mind it can not really nail down God although it can work with aspects of God. Anyway I like the Taoist saying or pointer along the lines of, The Mystery of mysteries" which remains so, for any Mystery that gets nailed down is brought down.
Pretty much.

Through relating those tales to the one who calls himself "God-Like", Daz saw those tales as illustrating his point entirely...if viewed in one way, yes it can be seen as supporting the stance he has taken on the matter...but that wasn't my point and purpose in relating them.

In regards to Maya, we all know and understand that physicality relates to physicality...covalent bonds see to that and so, to one who is in the realm of the physical, they will stand before the elephant or bus...the vehicle will run them down and it is "lights out, Charlie" and the body will die...but what really dies?

Is it anything other than the body that dies? Materialists will say "you are only the body and when you are dead, you are dead...nothing survives demise of meatsuit".

In the Bhagavad Gita it says "For the Soul, there is neither birth nor death..nor having once been, does it ever cease to be..it is unborn, undying and eternal. It is not slain when the body is slain"...and so, the one who believes that they actually die when run over by the bus is in that state of Maya...existence is relative... Consciousness is not dependent on existence...so yes, Buddha could have fallen on his sword, but that wouldn't have been relevant to the teachings so why bother doing that?

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #24  
Old 23-11-2019, 12:46 AM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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besides the gross physical body which perishes in a human lifetime, there are souls which are said to be created from Spirit (or in the image of & by the Supreme Being) yet per some Hindu schools those souls are said to be ultimately re-absorbed back into Spirit which means those souls no longer exist either So in effect we come back to, "nothing gained and nothing lost", per some Hindu schools but not others. Btw. there is the near universal saying/teaching in Hinduism (as far as I know) about souls being eternal which in words itself is a contradiction since if that were so then how could there also be the teaching that they were created (thus not eternal) being that their/our creation would occur at some particular time during the cosmic cycle...?

...anyway that is all a secret to our minds which can never give or hold answers about same except in a purely speculative way.
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  #25  
Old 23-11-2019, 01:43 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handy guy
besides the gross physical body which perishes in a human lifetime, there are souls which are said to be created from Spirit (or in the image of & by the Supreme Being) yet per some Hindu schools those souls are said to be ultimately re-absorbed back into Spirit which means those souls no longer exist either So in effect we come back to, "nothing gained and nothing lost", per some Hindu schools but not others. Btw. there is the near universal saying/teaching in Hinduism (as far as I know) about souls being eternal which in words itself is a contradiction since if that were so then how could there also be the teaching that they were created (thus not eternal) being that their/our creation would occur at some particular time during the cosmic cycle...?

...anyway that is all a secret to our minds which can never give or hold answers about same except in a purely speculative way.
There really is no contradiction.

It is just a misconception to believe that souls were ever "created" in the first place.

Each one of us, each Jivatman is part and parcel of the Paramatman which has always been...so you could say that we have all been "broken off" from the main Soul, but that doesn't mean that we are created from nothing...we are just emanations of the Divine and not creations of the Divine and yes, eventually, upon attaining Moksha, we shall be reabsorbed back into that from whence we came..and so, the soul is neither born nor dies...it is either expressively manifest (Saguna) or unmanifest (Nirguna).

There are many explanations of this all through the Spanda Karikas, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, the Bhagavat Purana etc about the nature of the Soul...a lot of information is there...but at the end of the day, people will believe whatever they want to believe and hold it as truth regardless of what the scriptures say and yet still associate as being "Hindu" and I cannot, for the life of me see how that can be possible...all that ever runs through my mind then is "this must be symptomatic of living in Kali Yuga" and I long for the time aeons ago when everything was much more structured and a hell of a lot easier to understand, without everybody asking so many questions which makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever....the questions must make sense to them or they wouldn't be asking them and I could spend lifetimes asking one simple question "what do you mean by that?" and still be none the wiser.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #26  
Old 23-11-2019, 02:44 AM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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the contradictions are recorded in written doctrine among many well recognized, very old and venerable "Hindu" related orders, schools or sects (and have been for thousands of years) as directed by the lineage holders of same. So a student vowed to one of them can not go against their core and established doctrines and thus ad-lib with their own interpretations and still expect to remain their student.
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  #27  
Old 23-11-2019, 03:26 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handy guy
the contradictions are recorded in written doctrine among many well recognized, very old and venerable "Hindu" related orders, schools or sects (and have been for thousands of years) as directed by the lineage holders of same. So a student vowed to one of them can not go against their core and established doctrines and thus ad-lib with their own interpretations and still expect to remain their student.
Are you able to provide examples and sources? Could you please provide the exact contradictory texts with references and cite the schools they come from so that I can see an example of what you mean as it relates to the permanence or impermanence of the Soul? Thank you.
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  #28  
Old 24-11-2019, 04:11 AM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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I'm no expert on the subject...I'd add that it is also very important to recognize what many Hindu/Vedas based schools and sects have in common along with what they have in common culture and history wise!

Two main books where I got some information, Dancing with Siva and Merging with Siva by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.

For instance on page 521 of Dancing with Siva a brief summary is given about some the differences between the six schools of Saivism, differences which in some cases could be called contradictory from each other within said main sect. A very short example: from an almost 1,000 page book states that Saiva Siddhanta teaches a complete "merger" of soul in Siva whereas in Pasupata Saivism "the liberated soul retains individuality".

One can then go a few pages further to 529-531 and read of some of the differences between the four major Hindu sects, more so with Vaishnavism which has several different core beliefs along with practices compared to Saivism.

For more reading see pages 1017-1063 in Merging with Siva where discussions/arguments are compared between Monism and Pluralism in just Saiva Siddhanta.

Shall we also get into Vedanta non-dualism, qualified non-dualism, and dualism...perhaps another day?

Anyway, Many paths, one Source Om Shanti
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  #29  
Old 24-11-2019, 11:09 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handy guy
I'm no expert on the subject...I'd add that it is also very important to recognize what many Hindu/Vedas based schools and sects have in common along with what they have in common culture and history wise!

Two main books where I got some information, Dancing with Siva and Merging with Siva by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.

For instance on page 521 of Dancing with Siva a brief summary is given about some the differences between the six schools of Saivism, differences which in some cases could be called contradictory from each other within said main sect. A very short example: from an almost 1,000 page book states that Saiva Siddhanta teaches a complete "merger" of soul in Siva whereas in Pasupata Saivism "the liberated soul retains individuality".

One can then go a few pages further to 529-531 and read of some of the differences between the four major Hindu sects, more so with Vaishnavism which has several different core beliefs along with practices compared to Saivism.

For more reading see pages 1017-1063 in Merging with Siva where discussions/arguments are compared between Monism and Pluralism in just Saiva Siddhanta.

Shall we also get into Vedanta non-dualism, qualified non-dualism, and dualism...perhaps another day?

Anyway, Many paths, one Source Om Shanti
Thank you.

It has been about 30 years since I read those "contemporary catechisms" you have mentioned there and in order to understand all of that in more depth, I went from reading that series by Subramuniyaswami to a French Indologist and Saivite Scholar by the name of Alain Danielou.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Shiva...xoCksQQAvD_BwE

By the way, Saiva Siddhanta is a totally Dualistic school (based on the Sāṃkhya philosophy) and not a Non-Dual one...there is no "merging in Siva" according to it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaiva_Siddhanta

Pashupata Saivism is another "Bhakti" movement which focuses more on rituals and obsevances and it is also interesting to note that King Basava (a Tamil Saivite reformer) lived at exactly the same time and same place as Ramanuja...the one who formulated Vishishtadvaita also known as Acintya Bedhabheda Tattva...also known as qualified monism/non dualism within the Vaishnava tradition...it is compelling to note the similarities of the Tamil Alvars and Nayanars of the 11th and 12th Centuries CE and the exchange of philosophical ideologies doing the rounds at that time...but I digress.

There are two main branches of Saivism which split around the same time..the Atimarga and the Mantramarga...now, where is that diagram again?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ofShaivism.jpg

One branch worshiped the Puranic form of Shiva...that is, a Lord Shiva (Shankara) with all those associated attributes we see on tacky calendar art ...the other worshiped an impersonal form of the Divine called "Shiva" either as a concept, or in the form of a Lingam ...some schools like Virashaivism (Lingayatism) mixed both of them together!

Who is right and who is wrong? That all depends on individual perception, experience, preference and understanding really...I mean, one moment I can be immersed in the duality of the Saiva Siddhanta school and the next, I am expounding the doctrine of Kshemaraja of the Kaula school or Abhinavagupta of the Trika school of Kashmir..or just going back to the Saiva Agamas...it is all relative.

I personally don't see any problem seeing "God" as an omnipotent entity who can manifest as Saguna Brahman (for His beloved devotees) whilst also being unmanifest as pure potentiality as Nirguna Brahman simultaneously..all it takes is a very slight shift in perspective.

I will, however, reread those books...

Until then..

Here is an essay on the Shvetasvatara Upanishad..which is the first Veda to ever mention Lord Shiva by name...He was known as Rudra before that..

https://allsaivism.com/articles/svetavatara.aspx

Om Namah Shivaya

Om Swasti Astu

Last edited by Shivani Devi : 24-11-2019 at 11:56 AM.
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  #30  
Old 25-11-2019, 12:04 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Further to our PMs discussing Sudda Saiva Siddhanta.

I will give a public apology right here in regards to tossing a blanket over Saiva Siddhanta in regards to the Samkhya philosophy without acknowledging Rishi Tirumular and the Advaita Siddhanta movement which Handy Guy reminded me about via PM.

I made a post about that exact thing in the Non Duality forum about a year ago and I share it here:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...6&postcount=38

In that post, I referenced the Advaita Schools of Saiva Siddhanta and I included a beautiful treatise on it that I would love to share with everyone:

https://chestofbooks.com/new-age/spi...Siddhanta.html

https://chestofbooks.com/new-age/spi...ta-Part-2.html

https://chestofbooks.com/new-age/spi...ta-Part-3.html

There are quite a few parts to that...it is actually a whole book that Handy Guy and others will enjoy reading imo.

*Although, from the way Advaita is being described in that book, it still comes across as sounding like Vishishtadvaita or qualified monism to myself personally because they cannot seem to get around the "hard problem" of awareness through association:

Quote:
"God is one with them, and different."

And Saint Arunandi Sivacharya adds another relation, 'one and-different.' Here then is involved 'Abheda,' 'Bheda,' and 'Bhedabheda' relations. But other schools postulate one or other of these relations, and the similes used are 'gold and ornament' to denote the Abheda relation, 'darkness and light,' to denote Bheda relation, and 'word and meaning' to denote the Bhedabheda relation. And there can be no reconciliation between these views, and no meeting place between them. The Siddhanta postulates all these different relations, but by other similes, such as body and soul to denote Abheda, eye and the sun to denote Bheda, soul and the eye to denote Bhedabheda, as set forth above in the stanza quoted from Saint Umapati-Sivacharya, and yet so as not to be contradictory, there must therefore be something peculiar in this view which makes it possible to admit all of these different relationships or aspects, and yet not to be self-contradictory to appear as one harmonious whole. And it is this peculiar relation which cannot be easily defined or described, that is denoted by the word 'Advaita.'

So, again, I apologise for taking the purely academic approach and omitting a very important school of thought in the process and thank Handy Guy for refreshing my memory.

By the way, please forgive all the advertisements in that book...if I see another picture of an anus, I will go nuts...

Aum Namah Shivaya

Last edited by Shivani Devi : 25-11-2019 at 12:47 AM.
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