No God

[sentient]

^
Lovely story JustBe.

Here at this moment we have got a Magpie-lark nesting season.
There is no doubt about it by the way they eyeball you and how you can hear it in their voice.

So walking to your local post office or shopping centre can present quite a challenge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP0kDweEjz0

*

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by sentient

^
Lovely story JustBe.

Here at this moment we have got a Magpie-lark nesting season.
There is no doubt about it by the way they eyeball you and how you can hear it in their voice.

So walking to your local post office or shopping centre can present quite a challenge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP0kDweEjz0

*

Life’s moments through the eyes of our bird friends provides many challenges, good and not so good.. is that video shot in Queensland you think?

[sentient]

Originally Posted by JustBe

is that video shot in Queensland you think?

Could be, there certainly are enough palm trees around.

Originally Posted by JustBe

Life’s moments through the eyes of our bird friends provides many challenges, good and not so good..

Yeah, might have to get used to wearing one of those big square ice-cream buckets on one’s head for the time being when walking around the neighbourhood.
Different people use different methods

*

You of course know this prayer eh! (by Leunig, though others might not):

Dear God,

We give thanks for birds. All types of birds.
Small birds and large birds.
Domestic fowl, migratory birds and birds of prey,
hooting birds, whistling birds, shrikes,
coloured parrots and dark darting wrens.
Birds too numerous to mention.
We pray for them all.

We mourn the loss of certain species
and pray for the deliverance of endangered ones.
We pray, too, for farm birds,
that they may be released from cruelty and suffering.

We give thanks for eggs and feathers,
for brave, cheerful songs in the morning
and the wonderful haunting, night prayers of owls,
mopokes, frogmouths and all nocturnal fowl.

We praise the character of birds, their constancy,
their desire for freedom, their flair for music and talent for flying.
May we always marvel at the ability to fly.

Especially we praise their disregard for human hierarchy
and the ease with which they leave their droppings
on the heads of commoners or kings regardless.

Grant them fair weather, fresh food and abundant materials
for building their nests in spring.
Provide them too with perches and roosts with pleasant aspects.

Dear God, guide our thoughts to the joy and beauty of birds.
Feathered angels.
May they always be above us.

Amen!

*

[sentient]

P.S. JustBe

In your earlier post, about mind still ruling the roost and the entire chicken coop..
Were you referring to Mandala? ….

*

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by sentient

Could be, there certainly are enough palm trees around.


Yeah, might have to get used to wearing one of those big square ice-cream buckets on one’s head for the time being when walking around the neighbourhood.
Different people use different methods

*

You of course know this prayer eh! (by Leunig, though others might not):


*

It reminded me of Townsville where I, long time ago lived.

Lol to ice cream bucket, but yes you do what you need to do. Those boys in the video had me laughing. Even as they set themselves up, they still went through the “unknown” and the shock when it swiped their helmets. I’ve had that experience before, it’s rather unnerving.

Leunig and prayer I do..

I sent that prayer to my friend, she’s been bird watching new species in her garden, finding their names and enjoying the birdsong. Now her domestic killers have all passed over. Her dog was an incredible guard dog, but gee she kept everything out. I remember one day having to rescue a porcupine from her attempts to harm. One would think the spikes would be a big aversion, but no, not her.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

I have not gone back to reconsider my replys as I responded to yours, so if I have unintentionally miss-assessd where you coming from, please accept my apologies.

Again, maybe this back-n-forth between us two has become too convoluted to have meaningful discourse without hurt feelings.

r6, first off - no worries. Your apology is well intentioned and I appreciate your sincere intention. In fact there are no hurt feelings here Please be clear on this: the fact that I am speaking frankly and directly is just that. It does not mean I am hurt or upset.
But it's very kind of you to acknowledge your assumptions were incorrect, and I appreciate that.

I will speak directly to the facts because it is clearer and also because it's my prerogative in this modern age (FF hahaha)...and honestly, nothing further should be read into that. TBH, I get that you cannot quite step into my shoes and you've said as much. But in no way is that a huge fail. In fact, acknowledging THAT in and of itself is huge progress for anyone...and I honour your work there for your part r6. We grow immensely in spirit when we make a space for others to be different and have their say AND then to also actually listen and give a damn.

Now, as I've said, we do and will see things differently. And the facts are both that we experience life differently, and that the larger environment in which you (and those who are intrinsically more powerful) come to your equanimity (per your hierarchy of needs) assumes both the reality and the exploitation of my (and those like me) intrinsic weakness and vulnerability. That is, the structure of our society (i.e., the larger environment) currently rests on these things...it is true variously across all human societies.

To be clear...it is no one person's "fault" that the more powerful physically have to date used and exploited their advantage, both over less powerful men and also reliably over all women since the dawn of time. It is no one's "fault" that a man's equanimity and balance in his environment day-to-day is broadly addressed and met (per your hierarchy) at the expense of those who are (intrinsically) weaker and more vulnerable. And always has been, to date.

Because this is simply where we find ourselves at the moment of our awakening as a human community.
This is where the unawakened, unexamined history of humanity has found itself, when we first began to truly see. (I was blind, but now I see).

Rather, this discussion of how we attain equanimity (say, per the hierarchy of needs) provides opportunity to then discuss the reality of our larger environment in which we live.
Into which we are born and within which we shape our mutual humanity.

Equanimity -- and, importantly, addressing the hierarchy of needs in order to attain and sustain equanimity -- is of key importance to humanity, both individually and collectively.
As equanimity and its fruits or outpouring (i.e., manifest equanimity and lovingkindness) is foundationally necessary for all further spiritual growth.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

BigJ, I believe we have a fundamental difference of perspective, owing to being different individuals with different experiences in this life and in other lifetimes. And that's fine...we each are where we are.

If we look only to the individual, or to the individual and how society functions "on top of" the individual, as a separate layer, then we can come to your perspective or to many other variants of it.

If we look at the individual and society as one cloth, as the product of our interbeing, then none of those lines you've drawn around the individual or society is real, enduring, or substantive. And the illuminated implications are vast and multifaceted.

In fact, I find the more deeply I have ventured into Buddhist philosophy, the more deeply and fully my perspectives are illuminated in these areas I've shared.
But wait, hahaha...there's only an infinity of diversity and multitudes remaining. I've only just BEGUN to penetrate some of the depths and the implications.

And I wish you all the best on your journey of discovery as well. So long as you don't hold rigidly or fixedly to your sanity, your certainty, your pride, your intellect, your habituated perspectives...then no worries.
As come what may, with the mutual support of your fellow travellers, you'll do just fine

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Some of your beliefs seem to deal with the distribution of wealth. This idea has a tendency to get out of hand. The Buddhist country of Cambodia in recent times experienced such a disaster. If you are not pushing for the distribution of wealth, please let me know.

BigJ, em...NO LOL. That is not what I was discussing. (However, discussion of equitable distribution of necessities and benefits may be relevant broadly in a discussion of how we consciously strive to address the hierarchy of needs required for individual and collective humanity to attain and sustain equanimity and balance more broadly.) Nor any particular nation state situation.

What was discussed is this. Equanimity at the most macro levels of humanity and its impact on the micro level of the individual. And vice-versa.

Specifically, taking ownership of where we find ourselves and owning the state of our larger environment (society), such that we can begin making conscious choices and contributing consciously to both our individual and collective endeavour.

You may also refer to my last to r6 above, and my last to Gem, a few pages back. He and I were discussing some of the micro-macro issues related to equanimity and balance individually and collectively.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, basically, the cessation is you stopping, and everything continuing.

That's a good description of mindfulness, and it's not a cessation of process, but you ceasing to get involved.

Yes, you develop a deep insight into the whole mechanism of blocks and up and programming.

There are wounds and blocks in the lifeform, but the one aware has no judgement on that whatsoever. Others can have their complexes and tendencies and it's OK.

Gem, hello. Jumping in...just wanted to say, as r6 and I have been discussing some structural level issues which impact humanity both foundationally and differentially...that it is key to accept this reality. We can be keenly sensitive to what is...and to where humanity find ourselves in this moment of awakening.

And it is not about blame or judgment. Rather it is simply about greater awareness and ownership of what is, which allow for truly conscious choices and greater engagement with our journey in this moment and in future.

I'm not involved in the argument, but people think my comments are struggling with right and wrong, so they think there is an argument going on, but I'm not even within the right vs wrong arena.

It's a different way of talking, see. I'm not here with a presupposed structure to the dialectic which is agree disagree right wrong, so when people try to take down near enough everything I say, there's actually nothing built up in the first place, and I keep saying it isn't true because I say so and even though I can prove I'm right by quoting Buddha, it isn't true because Buddha said it. It's true because it's quite obvious that you are aware and this is how it is. The only difference is I'm not adding on to that, actually, mindfulness will remove everything until only 'this' is left. Then it's only logical to say, if the entire attention is 'here with this', that's a very clear, focused and attentive mind... and isn't it true that 'this' is where you live?

You see how that can't be realised 'later on'? No one lives later on. The imaginary future me who is enlightened and purified is entirely fabricated by the powerful mind. Then there is remembered me who is supposed to be the same one as the future me, but past has gone by and future is not happening, so 'this' is 'it'.

Yes. The power of this awakened moment is always right here and right now. That is still just so [expletive] brilliant, I still find myself amazed and thankful.

Just as good, once awakened, present, and taking conscious choices in the mo, we can choose to live from our awakened centre, such that all our realisations and illuminations are with us anew in each moment. We choose to be in our own presence and thus we grow.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by sentient

Since I do not wish to sound like a broken record:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqtb6XBBBRc

At this very moment I am selling Mandalas, now being a solemn Mandala propagandist …….
https://i.redd.it/zm868s1pe1901.jpg

*

Which 'Buddhism' pocket do you relate to the best Hinayana, Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Special for you running, I’d recommend Vajrayana/Tantra. (since I know next to nothing about the other yanas ….. aaaand because Tantra deals with energy).

Everything is seen/experienced as All-encompassing Spacious Silence (if you like) plus All-encompassing Energy. Shiva + Shakti I assume.
Hence no human qualities are seen as obstructions. Everything is ultimately seen as energy and can be included as workable.

*

Yet.
What do you envision a Mandala of a heroin addict looking like?
I see heroin addiction as its centre and the person having next to no free will to their behaviour.

What does a narcissist Mandala look like? (I’m familiar with this, since I spent the latter part of my childhood in a narcissist household).

Ask a narcissist to go within and discern what their ‘agenda’ is.
Does not happen.

In Buddhism – ‘we’ stop looking for happiness outside of ourselves and go inwards.

But because of the trauma suffered in early childhood, a narcissist, like a broken record does not grow beyond the emotional dependency to the outside world i.e. cannot independently go within to find ‘happiness’, so all you will hear is the propaganda about how you should be like this and not be like that ….. or how ‘humanity’ should or should not be in relation to them.

There is no other agenda/choice for them, but to try to be the drummer and its beat to everybody around them should dance to (i.e. propaganda, no matter how IQ .... book)

What does an egoic Mandala look like?
To me it looks very much like the narcissistic example above, even if the ego pretends "Buddhist Mindfulness Practice"

What does 'Enlightened Mandala' look like?
If one does not have a free will – one will not be able to surrender it to "THAT".

*

Sentient, hello there. You touch on a foundational truth. If the experience of incarnated humanity of a narcissist is stunted, deformed, &/or otherwise foundationally different to your own, there is no presumptive common ground. The existence of (a growing number of) narcissists and the increasing acceptance of amoral utilitarianism as a normative basis for human interaction is a real and present threat or disturbance to equanimity for one and all, at both individual and collective levels. Internally and externally.

It is a difficult reality for many of us to accept , but we cannot guarantee commonality nor any desired outcomes from the narcissist in growth or behaviour which society does not force or extract. Likewise, superficial compliance does not guarantee any deeper transformation or growth in any particular direction. Last, the mainstreaming of narcissistic behaviour at the level of society has also complicated humanity's ability to promote social welfare, justice, and balance as an natural extension of equanimity as a social good and (essentially) a core human right, even.

The existence and perhaps even real growth of narcissists in our human population calls for firm boundaries and real social and even legal repercussions, as needed, to minimise egregious narcissistic predation and parasitic, egregious consumption of resources in their surrounds, as they move through life from a narcissistic, predatory perspective/centre -- which tends to view others from a perspective of amoral utilitarianism. This perspective dehumanises others, as does any exchange or interaction which is predicated upon amoral utilitarianism.

You can arguably directly equate amoral utilitarianism with narcissism, as it is not a belief system for narcissists but rather represents their direct experience with the world and the rest of "humanity" who are not in fact seen as fully human but who rather exist to gratify the immediate needs of the narcissist. "Treatment" is effective only to the extent a narcissist is willing to take ownership and work on him- or herself...and this is extremely rare. It may take many lifetimes before they progress from a predatory approach to one that is more equitable and just.

You've noted the problem quite well. It is a bit of a naïve arrogance to assume that our desire for divine union or bliss is "the same" all round for all humanity. Just as it is a bit of a naïve arrogance to assume that even the broadest seeming hierarchy of needs would apply "across the board", even across foundational, intrinsic differences in our physical incarnations. And I say this very kindly, with all due respect to all others, and with ill intent toward none.

There is often no wrong intent, no intent to do ill when we dismiss differences as being foundational and vital...but if we do not acknowledge these, we limit our own ability to apprehend truth. We limit our own perspective and our own growth. There are foundational differences between us and amongst us which cannot be readily amended or addressed, and we ignore these at our peril.

Until we acknowledge the reality of what is, we cannot take ownership of our responsibilities...of both our prerogatives and of our limits and limitations.
And your example is a core one. I.e., the narcissist experiences reality differently, operates from amoral utilitarianism, assumes the universality and preeminence of a unilateral perspective (their own), and will not reflect or take ownership. And therefore, the narcissist tends to experience a severely contracted ability to grow and apprehend (new) truth.

Peace & blessings
7L

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Sentient, hello there. You touch on a foundational truth. If the experience of incarnated humanity of a narcissist is stunted, deformed, &/or otherwise foundationally different to your own, there is no presumptive common ground. The existence of (a growing number of) narcissists and the increasing acceptance of amoral utilitarianism as a normative basis for human interaction is a real and present threat or disturbance to equanimity for one and all, at both individual and collective levels. Internally and externally.

It is a difficult reality for many of us to accept , but we cannot guarantee commonality nor any desired outcomes from the narcissist in growth or behaviour which society does not force or extract. Likewise, superficial compliance does not guarantee any deeper transformation or growth in any particular direction. Last, the mainstreaming of narcissistic behaviour at the level of society has also complicated humanity's ability to promote social welfare, justice, and balance as an natural extension of equanimity as a social good and (essentially) a core human right, even.

The existence and perhaps even real growth of narcissists in our human population calls for firm boundaries and real social and even legal repercussions, as needed, to minimise egregious narcissistic predation and parasitic, egregious consumption of resources in their surrounds, as they move through life from a narcissistic, predatory perspective/centre -- which tends to view others from a perspective of amoral utilitarianism. This perspective dehumanises others, as does any exchange or interaction which is predicated upon amoral utilitarianism.

You can arguably directly equate amoral utilitarianism with narcissism, as it is not a belief system for narcissists but rather represents their direct experience with the world and the rest of "humanity" who are not in fact seen as fully human but who rather exist to gratify the immediate needs of the narcissist. "Treatment" is effective only to the extent a narcissist is willing to take ownership and work on him- or herself...and this is extremely rare. It may take many lifetimes before they progress from a predatory approach to one that is more equitable and just.

You've noted the problem quite well. It is a bit of a naïve arrogance to assume that our desire for divine union or bliss is "the same" all round for all humanity. Just as it is a bit of a naïve arrogance to assume that even the broadest seeming hierarchy of needs would apply "across the board", even across foundational, intrinsic differences in our physical incarnations. And I say this very kindly, with all due respect to all others, and with ill intent toward none.

There is often no wrong intent, no intent to do ill when we dismiss differences as being foundational and vital...but if we do not acknowledge these, we limit our own ability to apprehend truth. We limit our own perspective and our own growth. There are foundational differences between us and amongst us which cannot be readily amended or addressed, and we ignore these at our peril.

Until we acknowledge the reality of what is, we cannot take ownership of our responsibilities...of both our prerogatives and of our limits and limitations.
And your example is a core one. I.e., the narcissist experiences reality differently, operates from amoral utilitarianism, assumes the universality and preeminence of a unilateral perspective (their own), and will not reflect or take ownership. And therefore, the narcissist tends to experience a severely contracted ability to grow and apprehend (new) truth.

Peace & blessings
7L

nature proves her point that its a circle we travel to back to ourselves(bliss and silence), everytime somebody goes through the process and to the bliss without having been a part of a special or particular belief system.

in my view point its a lack of courage and faith to believe that the divine can't resolve whatever conflicts may be going on inside the person. by her power of joy/love and silence/peace.

lastly in my viewpoint if it wasn't for narcissist tendencys from spiritual leaders we would all know that it is a circle we all travel. back to ourselves(bliss and silence). we would know this is and has always been our true nature(where we came).