Ego and Consciousness.

[engellstein]

My first memory was when I was maybe 3. I remember looking around knowing who everyone was, and asking myself how I knew that because I just started being aware lol. Deep thoughts for a toddler.

[Rokon]

Originally Posted by (im)perfectdream1794

I'm wondering what age or stage in prenatal development, does a soul join the body, or the body acquire a soul?

I'm certain the soul/spirit/consciousness joins "incrementally" with the initial joining sometime in the womb. It is not a "one time shot". There's no way an infant body/nervous system/brain could handle it. Especialy the heart and brain. Then as the body develops, and as needed the consciousness/spirit is added and "amped up". Perhaps in the thirties is maximum throttle.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Rokon

I'm certain the soul/spirit/consciousness joins "incrementally" with the initial joining sometime in the womb. It is not a "one time shot". There's no way an infant body/nervous system/brain could handle it. Especialy the heart and brain. Then as the body develops, and as needed the consciousness/spirit is added and "amped up". Perhaps in the thirties is maximum throttle.

I started to write the long version but decided instead to simplify for the sake of brevity. If you want to go into this deeper, we can, there is a ton of interesting stuff that could be said on the subject. But in a nutshell, your "functional identity" in this lifetime is limited to "this" lifetime. Your soul barely registers it's presence. If you study how an "individual" is formed, from conception onward, it becomes clear that our definition-of-self is intimately tied to the manor in which we've batched neurons during this lifetimes experience. When we die, those neurons die as well. We will hardly know that this occurred though, since our being-of-presence will now take the front stage, while our "history" as a "person" will evaporate with the brain. We can still Remember this life, but in a very different way than we do now.

Our brains essentially stabilize around the age of 28, which is why so many seem to come-of-age around then. But outside of a "spiritual experience" what we do experience will always be physically specific and be run through the confines of our brains. We can give credit for our growing integration and effective-execution of life-challenges to our soul if we want to, but it's merely our brains, through the unconscious, getting better at how it handles repetitive patterns. The soul is always present, but that's not what customizes this lifetime. Our physical interpretation-of-self is via the neuro-plasticity of the brain.

[Rokon]

Originally Posted by organic born

I started to write the long version but decided instead to simplify for the sake of brevity. If you want to go into this deeper, we can, there is a ton of interesting stuff that could be said on the subject. But in a nutshell, your "functional identity" in this lifetime is limited to "this" lifetime. Your soul barely registers it's presence. If you study how an "individual" is formed, from conception onward, it becomes clear that our definition-of-self is intimately tied to the manor in which we've batched neurons during this lifetimes experience. When we die, those neurons die as well. We will hardly know that this occurred though, since our being-of-presence will now take the front stage, while our "history" as a "person" will evaporate with the brain. We can still Remember this life, but in a very different way than we do now.

Our brains essentially stabilize around the age of 28, which is why so many seem to come-of-age around then. But outside of a "spiritual experience" what we do experience will always be physically specific and be run through the confines of our brains. We can give credit for our growing integration and effective-execution of life-challenges to our soul if we want to, but it's merely our brains, through the unconscious, getting better at how it handles repetitive patterns. The soul is always present, but that's not what customizes this lifetime. Our physical interpretation-of-self is via the neuro-plasticity of the brain.

So you're implying that the brain magically develops sentience and self awareness on its own? And I assume this theory is the backdrop for the creation of a secondary consciousness we call the ego? The consummate religious bogyman?

I don't buy it. first of all it is theoretical at best and the story does not match the phenomena of consciousness. Not for me. It's unfounded in my view. Spirit is the man behind the curtain. Soul provides the media and pattern and body is the medium for experience imo.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Rokon

So you're implying that the brain magically develops sentience and self awareness on its own? And I assume this theory is the backdrop for the creation of a secondary consciousness we call the ego? The consummate religious bogyman?

I don't buy it. first of all it is theoretical at best and the story does not match the phenomena of consciousness. Not for me. It's unfounded in my view. Spirit is the man behind the curtain. Soul provides the media and pattern and body is the medium for experience imo.

So how then do you explain brain damage where entire personalities are lost or changed dramatically, where memories of family and friends are completely lost? How do you explain complete differences in cultures, where whole groupings of people are conditioned alike, and where the time-period that they occur in are mentally stamped as a reflection of their surroundings?

You do have a "constructed" ego that is largely molded by the environment you grew up in. And it can be taken away from you if you damage your brain in ways specific to this developed identity. Our spark of soul is what helps us to maintain a conscious presence, but your personality, associations, beliefs and alliances (not to mention your ability to see, touch, and move) are all being authored and coordinated by your brain.

[Rokon]

Originally Posted by organic born

So how then do you explain brain damage where entire personalities are lost or changed dramatically, where memories of family and friends are completely lost?

Borrowing from computer parlance you could see what happens when you are listening to music on your laptop when a component burns up and the music stops. Where's the music now? It's still there in earlier form such as mp3 code. But the music is just not being experienced through the computer. Its not a perfect analogy but it shows how spirit and brain work together to create human experience.

Originally Posted by organic born

How do you explain complete differences in cultures, where whole groupings of people are conditioned alike, and where the time-period that they occur in are mentally stamped as a reflection of their surroundings?

This is a difficult question for me. I don't know to what extent environmental learning (social) overlaps, or correlates with the soul personality, or spiritual dna “if you will”. Many large cultural influences and directions come from being in the same soul tribe. I think if we had more data we could see direct correlations between spirit groupings and manifestation choices, macro to micro. Such as choosing who your parents are going to be, when you are born, what culture, the scenario.

Originally Posted by organic born

You do have a "constructed" ego that is largely molded by the environment you grew up in. And it can be taken away from you if you damage your brain in ways specific to this developed identity. Our spark of soul is what helps us to maintain a conscious presence, but your personality, associations, beliefs and alliances (not to mention your ability to see, touch, and move) are all being authored and coordinated by your brain.

I believe the soul has its own predilections, proclivities, soul dna, that is molded by a soul's history and desires, Will and intent. The human brain cannot create a new consciousness. There are not two separate channels of consciousness in a human. Perhaps you might say that about “identity however”. But any educator should see the differences in students and that they are not, could not be solely environmental. Parents who have had more than one child can easily observe (if they are honest) the astounding differences in their children, from political views to desires, sexual preferences, ability to move through life, who they draw into their lives, etc. These are NOT primarily social and environmental learning. My three adult children are completely different yet they went to the same schools, had the same parents, ate the same food etc. there are so many assumptions that are holding the “lone ego personality” theory in place. A computer (brain) does not have the capability to be self aware, sentient, have desires and emotions, love, develop preferences (and neurosis :)) by itself. The brain has no context for these things. The soul does. There exists also phenomena that can be thrown into the mix such as xenoglossy, astral travels, a bunch of psychic phenomena, child prodigies etc.

I would also ask, if the soul enters the fetus at a certain point, then how would you qualify that soul? Is there no identity that soul brings? What is its purpose for the human and where is it located (locally)?

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Rokon

Borrowing from computer parlance you could see what happens when you are listening to music on your laptop when a component burns up and the music stops. Where's the music now? It's still there in earlier form such as mp3 code. But the music is just not being experienced through the computer. Its not a perfect analogy but it shows how spirit and brain work together to create human experience.


This is a difficult question for me. I don't know to what extent environmental learning (social) overlaps, or correlates with the soul personality, or spiritual dna “if you will”. Many large cultural influences and directions come from being in the same soul tribe. I think if we had more data we could see direct correlations between spirit groupings and manifestation choices, macro to micro. Such as choosing who your parents are going to be, when you are born, what culture, the scenario.


I believe the soul has its own predilections, proclivities, soul dna, that is molded by a soul's history and desires, Will and intent. The human brain cannot create a new consciousness. There are not two separate channels of consciousness in a human. Perhaps you might say that about “identity however”. But any educator should see the differences in students and that they are not, could not be solely environmental. Parents who have had more than one child can easily observe (if they are honest) the astounding differences in their children, from political views to desires, sexual preferences, ability to move through life, who they draw into their lives, etc. These are NOT primarily social and environmental learning. My three adult children are completely different yet they went to the same schools, had the same parents, ate the same food etc. there are so many assumptions that are holding the “lone ego personality” theory in place. A computer (brain) does not have the capability to be self aware, sentient, have desires and emotions, love, develop preferences (and neurosis :)) by itself. The brain has no context for these things. The soul does. There exists also phenomena that can be thrown into the mix such as xenoglossy, astral travels, a bunch of psychic phenomena, child prodigies etc.

I would also ask, if the soul enters the fetus at a certain point, then how would you qualify that soul? Is there no identity that soul brings? What is its purpose for the human and where is it located (locally)?

I love your post!! You have a nicely refined and a nicely curious mind!

Now in no way am I saying that the soul is not involved. Consciousness could not exist without it. What I am saying is that we heavily confuse our own leanings as an individual, within a physical experience, as though our daily life was being orchestrated by our soul. Which it isn't. The base parameters were set before we were born but the play that unfolds is intimately customized by the confines of each life's experience.

Based on what they now know about brain development it's becoming easier to track how are brains bundle neurons to form memory, motor control, our unconscious looping around repetitive tasks, and our sexual identity based on specifically physical occurrences.

So get this, all fetuses start out as female. At around 8 weeks into gestation a funny thing happens that will serve to influence a great deal as to how their life will unfold. If the fetus has the XX chromosome to indicate female then very little different happens until birth (other than normal development, which is quite impressive when it comes to the female brain). If the XY chromosome is present then testosterone is released which tends to change development in some rather potent ways. Testosterone is essentially poison to the neurons that inhabit that part of the brain that handles emotional reflection/expression, killing roughly 80% of this inventory, and yet for a female these will continue to remain intact. Testosterone, in the developing male, will also increase the size of that part of the brain that deals with aggression and sexual pursuit by as much as two and a half times larger that the female counterpart. (information from: The Female Brain, by Louann Brizendine)

When the child is born it experiences a burst of either estrogen or testosterone, depending on it's sex, at a level almost equal to the normal production of adults. But this is only a burst to further anchor the bodies formation along each line, and will dwindle to almost nothing until puberty. This not only effects the body but effects the manor in which a child experiences itself.



It's during year one and two that a childs brain truly "takes off". Forming as many as 20 million neuron connections each minute. This is so the brain can build an infrastructure for most everything it's tasked with in regards too the human experience. From the development of sight, to how we move our limbs, absorbing the sounds that makeup the language that's spoken, absorbing the moods and orientations of those around it.

Around the mid part of year two the brain will start trimming the neurons that are not often used.

Around the age of 5 or 6 the child will be trained and focused enough to start thinking along the lines that we currently consider "adult".

I posted this earlier in the thread but it bears repeating again, This is how we come to experience the core of what we do as an emerging adult.

Here's the scientific explanation of what happens and when:
"Delta waves occur mainly in infants, sleeping adults or adults with brain tumors. Theta waves occur mainly in children ages 2–5 years old. Alpha waves occur in adults who have their eyes closed or who are relaxed. Beta waves mainly occur in adults who are awake, alert or focused." From the "The Brain & the Mind." Psychology Volume 1.

This all is truly important in regards to our understanding the context of our thinking. The Delta wave is also the wave that a brain is in when hypnotized. The infant is absolutely open to all stimuli. The infant is literally absorbing it's environment without the remotest ability to pick ,choose or reject the impressions of this stimuli exposure. And all this has nothing to do with "beliefs" or specific events. The infant is absorbing the emotional content and rapidly building neuron pathways that encodes these emotional exposures. This exposure ultimately provides the drum-beat of our later patterns of thinking. As the brainwaves of an infant transitions from The Delta state, on up through to the Beta state, it does so built on the base of this Delta experience. So by age 6 much of our emotional conditioning and core assumptions are set. In many ways we are all like the emotional 6 year olds that we drew-into us back when. That's why most "adults" still seem like children.

So that's the science. In the earliest years of our lives we are being programmed in such a way that is highly customized to the environment we're born to. Quite an ingenious manor of programming a new member of the tribe for fitting-in to wherever they're born.


Other than for the original/ongoing spark of consciousness the soul plays little to no part in the mix. The brain keeps growing and developing until around the age of 28 (this is likely why a "Saturn return" in astrology has seemed significant). After that we can still tap into our neuro-plasticity in order to restructure ourselves as the need arises, but even much of that will be built on what came before.

Now is this the only thing that determines the course we take as humans involved in a human experience? Goodness no, but it's so intense in it's own way that it rivets us to the body we now find ourselves in. You can not spontaneously speak Chinese or really do much outside of your initial programming without a major effort, or a serious trauma, or if your initial calling is so intense that it pushes through to the core of our bodily experience. These can generate the exceptions that you speak of but, as you look around you, these are few and far in-between.

[Rokon]

What's first? Brain or consciousness. Chicken or egg.
I get annoyed sometimes when people say things like "that's just the way I was raised". That is often not true at all. I used to be amazed at how I could sit and read to my kids or give advice, or just communicate daily information to them. I could see how they reacted differently, accepted and processed information independently. Students are the same way. Huge differences in how they utilize, accept and process information and it has little to do with how they were raised or purely and environmental construction. I was also one kid in a large family growing up. There again each kid is not only different in personality (wide variation) I could easily observe how each one of my siblings assimilated the information around them uniquely. Music preferences were influenced quite a bit by environment but as we got older they moved away from the family influence. Sexual preferences are definitely rooted away from environmental influence in my opinion. The same for spiritual paths that we choose.

I think a big difference between what you are saying, Organic, is that I do not see our soul in us as a "spark". That threw me initially. I see our soul as a constant stream of spirit/light/consciousness. Similarly a decorated christmas tree gets it's power from the wall socket. When on there is a constant flow of current/electrons that animate the lights and decorations.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Rokon

What's first? Brain or consciousness. Chicken or egg.
I get annoyed sometimes when people say things like "that's just the way I was raised". That is often not true at all. I used to be amazed at how I could sit and read to my kids or give advice, or just communicate daily information to them. I could see how they reacted differently, accepted and processed information independently. Students are the same way. Huge differences in how they utilize, accept and process information and it has little to do with how they were raised or purely and environmental construction. I was also one kid in a large family growing up. There again each kid is not only different in personality (wide variation) I could easily observe how each one of my siblings assimilated the information around them uniquely. Music preferences were influenced quite a bit by environment but as we got older they moved away from the family influence. Sexual preferences are definitely rooted away from environmental influence in my opinion. The same for spiritual paths that we choose.

I think a big difference between what you are saying, Organic, is that I do not see our soul in us as a "spark". That threw me initially. I see our soul as a constant stream of spirit/light/consciousness. Similarly a decorated christmas tree gets it's power from the wall socket. When on there is a constant flow of current/electrons that animate the lights and decorations.

You're doing a "can't see the forest for the trees" thingy.

All the variables that you mention are included within the "environmental" mix. It's been long known that each child within the same family have been raised by different parents. Being female you'd be raised one way, being male another. The first born child would have been raises initially without siblings, the primary stimulus would be the parents. The second child would be raised with an older brother or sister, very different. While the third child may have been picked on constantly by the second child, or the dominate first. The father may have been employed with the first child but went without a job for a couple of years around the time of the third. Millions upon millions of little incidences would be specifically different for each child. While the gay thing is easily explained via the testosterone burst that the fetus is exposed too, in relation to the primary template for masculinity. Not enough testosterone at that point may have kept in place the female desire for a male partner, even though they're now sporting a penis.

The system is such that differences are rampant. Food choices will make a difference in ones bodily stress levels. The DNA passed-on to one child will be very notably different to that being bequeathed to another. Even identical twins will have entirely different experiences, not to mentioned being raised as an "identical twin".

All the major differences in individuals may be traced to their exposure since conception.

There is also the issue that we have been raised within an artificial reality based on recently constructed cultural expectation. We went for millions of years with basically a quiet and all natural experience, that's what we evolved in relation to. For the vast majority of us this new world doesn't sit right with our unconsciously programmed expectations. I'm sure that this desire that we have for a god could just as easily be a genetic expectation for one type of experience while daily we're being hammered by another reality that's feels skitzy and less "genetically" fulfilling.

We are both using the english language, along with the variable images what come with the expression of each word. We share these words and their meanings comparably enough that we can exchange a cogent conversation, but in this kind of conversation a certain set of words would mean one thing to you and an entirely different set of images would arise within my own thoughts.

We are, each of us, conditioned in a customizable way, reflecting an infinite amount of variables that are almost exclusively traceable to physical exposure.

[Rokon]

Originally Posted by organic born

We are, each of us, conditioned in a customizable way, reflecting an infinite amount of variables that are almost exclusively traceable to physical exposure.

Not exactly empirical. This is a construct made up by science because any theory must fit into a materialist mold. Its basically apples and oranges anyway. Whether or not it's the souls influence or a biological brain, there is no proving it because the materialist applies the condition that spirit is not involved.

But there is something mysterious that couldbe looked at by science called consciousness. There is no sufficient mechanisms for a biological brain to be self aware, conscious of itself and influence its own behavior. To be its own observer too. If the influence of non-local consciousness on our behaviour was allowed by the materialists then science could get off the treadmill.