The Four R's

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Four Reliances

Rely on the teaching, not on the person
Rely on the meaning, not on the words
Rely on the definitive meaning, not on the provisional
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary mind.


How do you know the difference in your own mind? Are you aware of that difference right now? Or is it a fleeting thing that comes and goes for you and hard to know which is which?

Good stuff naturesflow,

Let's first have a good understand of what they are within Buddhism.

The four reliances

1.Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
2.Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
3.Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
4.Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind

1: Do not rely on the individual, but on the Dharma:

If he contradicts the meaning of the Mahayana and so on,
Then however eloquent a speaker may seem,
He will bring you no benefit,
Like a demon appearing in a buddha’s form.

2.Rely on the meaning, not just on the words :

Whenever you study or contemplate the Dharma,
Rely not on the words, but on the meaning.
If the meaning is understood, then regardless of the speaker’s style,
There will be no conflict.

3.Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one

When it comes to the meaning,
You should know what is provisional and what is definitive,
And rely not on any provisional meaning,
But only on the meaning that is true definitively.
The omniscient one himself in all his wisdom,
Taught according to students’ capacities and intentions,
Presenting vehicles of various levels
Just like the rungs of a ladder.

4. Do not rely on the ordinary mind, but rely on wisdom

When taking the definitive meaning into experience,
Do not rely upon the ordinary dualistic mind
That chases after words and concepts,
But rely upon non-dual wisdom itself.

Now in your above quote you mentioned Wisdom Mind:

"Prajñâ", "wisdom", a central notion of the Mahâyâna, refers to a mind directly apprehending the ultimate nature of phenomena, namely their emptiness.
The realization of wisdom-mind is equated with awakening. Wisdom is the highest mark of Buddhahood as well as the highest perfection actualized by a Bodhisattva.

The definitive meaning can either be understood conceptually, by means of ideas, or it can be experienced directly as the object of non-conceptual awareness wisdom. As long as you are caught up in the conceptual extremes of negation and affirmation, existence and non-existence and so on, you have not gone beyond the realm of the ordinary mind. When you arrive at the sublime experience of wisdom, and all dualistic ideas have been pacified, you are in harmony with the nature of reality, which is beyond any kind of refutation and establishment or denial and affirmation, and you have reached the true depths of the Dharma.

[mulyo13]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

And then I wondered some more about the wisdom mind and how we can come to know the difference between the ordinary mind and the wisdom mind?

Ordinary mind usually followed by "I" and wisdom is causality of no "I", unconditional love, and compassion(may be there's more, now I only know 3 ).

Originally Posted by naturesflow

How do you know the difference in your own mind? Are you aware of that difference right now? Or is it a fleeting thing that comes and goes for you and hard to know which is which?

You will know the difference if you keep practicing meditation. Because you keep practicing meditation, it will becomes a habit. Because it becomes a habit, you will always meditating in every moment(daily routines). So you will always aware your mind.

[Floatsy]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

No I didn't feel any avoidance in me when I typed that out. It was very honest reflection of myself as I am now days. And I share most of what I share with a sincere heart and open mind. The intent was simply to model how I self reflect and how the two minds are for me.

And I am still interested in others in how they do this. So I guess if anyone is interested in responding they will, if not they won't.

Hi naturesflow,

I'm sorry if my response was rude or insensitive. I really respect how it is for you and that it works for you. I meant no disrespect at all to you.

Take care

[sky]

Rely on insight/wisdom mind not on sense-consciousness/ordinary mind....


Our knowledge is not always reliable because they are sense-based. We know through seeing, hearing,
smelling, tasting and touching, especially the first two. We are often mistaken by what we know. For,
when we know something, we cancel out everything else, as it were -- this is often a fatal mistake. It
reinforces our self-delusion.
Our sense-consciousness, in other words, is relative to what is in our minds and the sense-objects we
experience. Our minds and sense-objects change all the time. If we regard what we see, hear, smell,
taste or touch as being permanent or the absolute truth, then we would be badly and painfully mistak-
en.
A common mistake is to think people cannot change, that we are “what we are” or so-and-so is like
“that.” We all change, like it or not. But we can direct that change in a wholesome manner if we know
the Dharma. We need insight to do this. Insight means looking beyond the surface, “into” true reality,
that is, understanding how our mind works and what is truly real (not just virtually real).
We begin to see patterns of conduct, habits and reactions that cause pain in us and to others. These
have to be given up. We go on to cultivate lovingkindness, to accept ourselves happily and to do the
same with others.
Buddhism is not about what we know or how much we know. It is about changing our lives for the
better, about being a kinder and wiser person, more inclusive of others in our love and life.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

. Insight means looking beyond the surface, “into” true reality,
that is, understanding how our mind works and what is truly real (not just virtually real).

Is that what true reality means in Buddhism? "An understanding how our mind works"....

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Is that what true reality means in Buddhism? "An understanding how our mind works"....

The Diamond sutra will explain true reality/wisdom for you.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

The Diamond sutra will explain true reality/wisdom for you.

I would ask you to quote the various parts for me and for others.

I did already share what Wisdom and Reality is.

"Prajñâ", "wisdom", a central notion of the Mahâyâna, refers to a mind directly apprehending the ultimate nature of phenomena, namely their emptiness.

The realization of wisdom-mind is equated with awakening. Wisdom is the highest mark of Buddhahood as well as the highest perfection actualized by a Bodhisattva.

The highest wisdom.. the ultimate reality in Buddhism is Emptiness.

What is reality? Dictionaries tell us that reality is "the state of things as they actually exist." In Mahayana Buddhism, reality is explained in the doctrine of the Two Truths.

This doctrine tells us that existence can be understood as both ultimate and conventional (or, absolute and relative). Conventional truth is how we usually see the world, a place full of diverse and distinctive things and beings. The ultimate truth is that there are no distinctive things or beings.

To say there are no distinctive things or beings is not to say that nothing exists; it is saying that there are no distinctions. The absolute is the dharmakaya, the unity of all things and beings, unmanifested. The late Chogyam Trungpa called the dharmakaya "the basis of the original unbornness."

The two truths differentiates between two levels of truth or "really existing" in Buddhist discourse: relative or commonsensical truth or real, and absolute or ultimate truth or real.

The exact meaning varies between the various Buddhist schools and traditions. The best-known is the Madhyamaka interpretation, which says that conventional reality is the only reality that exists (relative truth), but that ultimately everything that exists is "empty", sunyata, of an inherent, everlasting "essence" (ultimate truth).

[Floatsy]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Is that what true reality means in Buddhism? "An understanding how our mind works"....

I hope not!

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Good stuff naturesflow,

Let's first have a good understand of what they are within Buddhism.

The four reliances

1.Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
2.Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
3.Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
4.Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind

1: Do not rely on the individual, but on the Dharma:

If he contradicts the meaning of the Mahayana and so on,
Then however eloquent a speaker may seem,
He will bring you no benefit,
Like a demon appearing in a buddha’s form.

2.Rely on the meaning, not just on the words :

Whenever you study or contemplate the Dharma,
Rely not on the words, but on the meaning.
If the meaning is understood, then regardless of the speaker’s style,
There will be no conflict.

3.Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one

When it comes to the meaning,
You should know what is provisional and what is definitive,
And rely not on any provisional meaning,
But only on the meaning that is true definitively.
The omniscient one himself in all his wisdom,
Taught according to students’ capacities and intentions,
Presenting vehicles of various levels
Just like the rungs of a ladder.

4. Do not rely on the ordinary mind, but rely on wisdom

When taking the definitive meaning into experience,
Do not rely upon the ordinary dualistic mind
That chases after words and concepts,
But rely upon non-dual wisdom itself.

Now in your above quote you mentioned Wisdom Mind:

"Prajñâ", "wisdom", a central notion of the Mahâyâna, refers to a mind directly apprehending the ultimate nature of phenomena, namely their emptiness.
The realization of wisdom-mind is equated with awakening. Wisdom is the highest mark of Buddhahood as well as the highest perfection actualized by a Bodhisattva.

Thankyou for sharing and expanding my initial post further. I am looking at your last mention about the emptiness. Is this the same as "nothingness"? I notice around the forum many say the point of emptiness or nothingness if they are the same realization, is not a place you can retain as you. Meaning you don't go into the void of emptiness and retain? I get the impression they believe that this is a point you cannot hold in yourself creating yourself as an empty vessel. Yet for me it is both emptiness and completeness that opens me to know the wisdom mind. I see both interacting in me as one source together, so both exist as one source in me. Without the emptiness, I cannot know the full extent of my own wisdom mind. Well that is how it feels to me. The emptiness was like a void of darkness/nothingness that I had to enter into to bring myself to let go fully of all aspects of my mind not in alignment with the wisdom mind. Yet that emptiness over time integrated as a source of completeness. So both move me as one as I see it, but maybe this just becomes a perception according to how much of the emptiness you actual hold as yourself empty?

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by mulyo13

Ordinary mind usually followed by "I" and wisdom is causality of no "I", unconditional love, and compassion(may be there's more, now I only know 3 ).

So by this you mean that the I is moving as a state of unity consciousness as itself, meaning the wisdom mind is balanced more in a state of equanimity of itself?


You will know the difference if you keep practicing meditation. Because you keep practicing meditation, it will becomes a habit. Because it becomes a habit, you will always meditating in every moment(daily routines). So you will always aware your mind.

I know the difference for myself, but more interested in others how they experience it for themselves.

So do you meditate regularly? And find the habits of this increase for you through this means?

I am aware of myself when I am centred and using the wisdom mind, for me now it feels inclusive and operating more through a whole inclusion of itself in my daily interactions. I guess I find myself not needing to resist what is. And so then my interactions are naturally listening to the whole to build a deeper awareness of this wisdom mind and its abilities to be in the world. So for me its more practicing it for real daily. And I am finding it has slowly increased to being a more awakened real state of being. I practice more on my son who reflects my deeper letting go spaces that might get stuck, and I am finding he is getting easier. He offers me a greater degree of balanced awareness in me as my blood child the one I gave birth too. So when I master him I feel like I master myself in the totality of rebirthing this in myself. I have used all reflections close to me and all in my world to build this, so the contemplation and emptiness for me was more about walking through this direct through all reflections where I felt my wisdom mind was not in alignment. And of course this has helped me ground and balance more as a way of being, not just a practice where I have to come back into the world to integrate it anyway. Meditation for me now is really a waking, walking state of being anywhere I am. For me its more important to build this as a way of being in the world.