Pointless forms of suffering and hardship

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

@Inavalan. This was my thought on it from my prevoius post. I'm not sure though. I was wondering what others thought.

Ok. I'll answer to what I assume you asked me.

I don't believe that the soul's progress implies becoming a loving person. I don't believe that we came here to learn to love. I also don't believe that we are perfect or loving souls, that come here and forget to be that way.

Souls aren't perfect out-there, they're on a continuous path of evolvement, progress.

A good analogy for the soul's incarnating on Earth is going to school. We are immature souls that can't function properly on higher planes, yet. Coming to school and be nice and loving might help us, or not, to have a good time in school, but definitely has nothing to do with acquiring the knowledge and the skills for which we have to attend this school.

As far as I know, soul's evolvement implies a progression of mastering instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition, ... We, as humans, mostly mastered our instincts, are dominated by emotions, started to develop an intellect, and have almost no intuition.

Until we master our emotions we can't function on higher planes that are instantaneously thought-responsive, because almost immediately our emotions would avalanche into nightmarish scenarios due to our fears.

The labs during our sojourns on Earth are our dreams and imagination, where we practice creating our realities.

The "unconditional love" some theorize, is actually a misnomer for the non-dual state of being masters of our emotions. Any dual emotion, like "love" (which is actually a feeling) implies its dual emotion, that in a thought-responsive environment takes over immediately. One's "love" generates fear of loss, anger for unfairness, and other such negative emotions and feelings, that ultimately are rooted in fear.

So, I believe that "love" isn't a measure of the soul's progress. I believe that the Universe doesn't need our "love".

[neil]

Originally Posted by MattMVS7

I didn't gain anything from my miserable struggles. I'm still the same, shallow person as ever, since I still have the same philosophy, which would be that positive emotions are the only things that make life beautiful, good, and worth living, since they're the only things that allow us to experience life as beautiful, good, and worth living. So, any form of struggle that takes away positive emotions, whether it be a miserable struggle, where a person grieves over the loss of a loved one, or a lifelong struggle with clinical depression, has no good reason for existing. Since life's all about positive emotions, then it's pointless to go through struggles that take them away. The best life one can live is a life that has the greatest amount of happiness/positive emotions. So, living a life, that consists of many unhappy struggles, is an inferior existence compared to living a long, happy life.

Absolutely spot on, all you can gain from misery, is that misery sucks.
However, the experiences & lessons gained from loving experiences without misery are wonderful.

One does not need to know experiences of misery, in order to understand that loving experiences without misery, are beneficial to the quality of Soul'self...lovingness can thrive without unlovingness....unlovingness is not nessesary in order to know the benefits of lovingness.

If anyone has witnessed with their sight & conscious awareness, what happens to a spiritual beings quality of Soul'self, due to the great law of REAP AS ONE SOWS", when that person has been acting in discordanance with the "great law".

If you had witnessed what happens then you would know that with every act of discordanance the Soul'self depletes in radiance & abundance of spiritual life force & the emanating spiritual body reflects the depleting qualities of the Soul'self & distorts, shrinks, darkens of complexion & fades away.

An unloving spiritual being can only grow more unloving, less radiant & less abundant of spiritual life force, from being in discordanance with God's way of love.

And an unhappy spiritual person of constant sorrow will not grow of spiritual radiance & abundance of spiritual life force, & will remain in a stagnant state of spiritual life force.

however a person who is free to feel/experience spiritual love & happiness will grow exponentially in radiance & abundance of spiritual life force, with each loving moment experienced, due to the great law of "REAP AS ONE SOWS".

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by MattMVS7

Since our goal as souls is to obtain the most learning and growth we can, which means we're supposed to be most loving, compassionate people we can be, then being born into a loving family would make it very likely that a person would be a very loving, compassionate person who acquires a lot of learning and growth. But, being born into a cruel, abusive family isn't good because not only will that person not obtain the amount of learning and growth he'd obtain if he lived with a loving family, but it's very likely he'd turn out to be a cruel, hateful, abusive person.

Many people who live with abusive families end up becoming cruel and abusive themselves, and living with such families only serves to stunt spiritual growth. That's why it's best for people to be born with loving families because that will create a healthy, happy, loving individual. Given this, why are some souls born into abusive families? The way I see it, it's pointless suffering that only serves to stunt the growth of an individual, and keep said individual in a realm of hate, despair, self-loathing, etc. I heard our souls are happy and loving in heaven (our true home). So, the best choice would either to be for our souls to remain in heaven, or to be sent to Earth, where they're born with loving families.

There's simply no good reason to send a soul, who's happy and loving in heaven, down to Earth, where that soul becomes cruel, unhappy, and abusive once he's born with an abusive family. The goal is for a soul to become the most loving, happy individual he can be, and having souls go through pointless forms of hardship and suffering, such as being born with an abusive family, obviously isn't going to achieve this goal. I, myself, have been through pointless forms of suffering that only served to waste my life away. I was caught in a cycle of worry and negative thinking that took away all the beauty, joy, and worth of my life.

My life was no longer worth living to me, and I was in a very miserable state, due to those worries and negative thoughts. Sure, I've learned to stop worrying, and to keep my thought processes healthy. But, learning this life lesson wasn't worth all that suffering and years wasted. It would be like a smoker, who destroyed his body through smoking, just to learn the life lesson that he shouldn't smoke. It simply wasn't worth all that suffering to learn this life lesson. It would've, therefore, been better if that smoker never smoked to begin with, just as how it would've been better if I never had those struggles to begin with.

There was also this recent emotional crisis I've been through, which was triggered by another worry. Now, this was a worry I could not ease one bit, no matter what I thought or did. Even though I've learned my life lesson to stop worrying, this recent worry was something I couldn't do anything about, since my mind couldn't let go of it. So, I had to wait it out until, one day, I was fully recovered from it. That is, until my subconscious mind resolved the worry on its own. But, during this whole recovery process, I was in a state of hell, and my life was nothing beautiful, good, or worth living. I could not love, and could only hate, and remain in despair.

Again, it was all pointless suffering that wasted my life. What's even worse is that there are heavenly, spiritual beings who have the power to heal people of their negative thoughts and worries. But, these beings didn't heal me at all. They just allowed me to go through all this pointless misery. Worrying is pointless suffering for an individual, and I've been sent here to Earth, just to go through this pointless suffering. During my miserable struggles, nothing I thought or did allowed me to love, or see my life as beautiful, good, or worth living.

So, I had no choice but to remain in complete darkness, where no god or heavenly being would free me. My mind had to heal itself (which was a long term recovery process), rather than god or these beings instantly healing me. They had the power to instantly heal me. But, instead, they just didn't care about me, and left me alone to suffer. It seems god and these heavenly beings don't care about humanity in general, since they allow souls to be born with abusive families, and allow so much other forms of pointless suffering.

I am sorry to hear that you are going through all this.

I was also born into an abusive, violent and narcissistic family and for a very long time, I hated the world and everyone in it....that issue still raises its nasty head within me from time to time, but I allow it and I accept it with an "it's okay to feel this way" and then that feeling just passes by itself.

The painful lesson we are here to learn, is to become totally self-reliant and independent from the emotional attachments which characterise the majority of humanity, so that we can transcend the pleasures of the flesh a lot easier...however, balancing total independence with loneliness is the tightrope we must walk and often, we will lose our "balance" and fall to one side or another of that rope.

We are either fiercely stubborn and become set in our ways and in our own specially created "comfort zone" because we have always had to fend for ourselves since birth OR we slide into the "nobody loves me, I am all alone in this world" self pity role of being the "victim"... thinking that if other people could at least show some pity here, I wouldn't have to keep on doing it for myself....often it just see-saws between the two.

Death is the EASY way out, because when we look around us, we can see others in worse-off situations than ourselves, but to pity them instead of self, feels like we are just doing that to downplay, ignore or negate our own issues and concerns through others who are "worse off"...which doesn't work for me, because my subconscious mind can totally see through that trick.

Due to my traumatic past, things like empathy and compassion were also never taught to me, so I have had to live life without these things...but for some miraculous reason, this did not turn me into a clone of my parents and although I don't think I can ever forgive them (and I don't have to if I don't want to), at least I have stopped blaming them for the way I turned out..which is the best that can be hoped for here.

I turned out like this regardless of and despite my parents...despite anything they said or did, despite being treated abhorrently, despite everything and all the warped lessons they taught me about how to hate the world...but there was one thing I knew in my heart...whatever the cost, whatever the outcome, there was NO WAY I was ever going to end up the pathetic and miserable creatures that THEY were...and my self-pity became directed towards them..."oh, how you both must truly hate yourselves to do what you did to your own child...your own flesh and blood".

Thus, as a young teen, I was introduced to spirituality through books and many, many trips to South-East Asia and my parents hated it! I was abused and punished just for being spiritual and for believing in something other than what they TOLD me was the truth! This was a revelation to me, because it made me think about and appreciate all of those who were persecuted for their spiritual beliefs since time immemorial...the Spanish Inquisition, the Christians vs Lions, the Salem witches...Joan of Arc...I felt they were ALL on my side going "prepare to fight and die for what you believe in and the Kingdom of Heaven shall be yours".

In the end, as I was being horse-whipped, punched, burned with cigarettes, sexually fondled, screamed at, ignored, locked in my room for days, starved etc, I could do nothing else but laugh and praise God going "is this the WORST you can do?" C'mon, come at me my Divine "bro" and in the end, I was rewarded with His Holy vision and Divine Grace..the abuse pretty much stopped after that and I was just totally ignored by my parents for the most part from then on.

I will type a bit more later because my mind has just gone totally blank (it tends to do that from time to time) which generally means that my attention is required elsewhere for a while.

Don't give up hope...there are many, many worlds besides this one in which you can find sanctuary whilst still alive in this physical realm and I have had to learn that the hard way.

Wishing you all the best.

[Shivani Devi]

Continuing...

Heaven isn't really all that it is purported to be either..it's pretty much overrated, if you ask me.

Most will be blissfully happy there, but from the vantage point of Heaven, we can still gaze down upon the Earth..we can still witness all of the abomination and atrocity carried out by a barbaric species....and heaven forbid (where the saying came from) we even entertain the thought within our minds.."why would a loving and caring Creator allow all that to happen?"

I mean, last time a group of us tried that, a third of us were hurled down into the Abyss, a third of us were commissioned to maintain law and order in Purgatory and a third of us were sentenced to live out a hundred births as Human Beings with a "why not see for yourself and THEN get back to me?"..but the goal is to find the eternal peace, the sublime state of Grace which is BEYOND any physical or astral locality such as a "Heaven, Hell, Purgatory or whatever.

I learned a while back...even if I went to a "Christian Hell" and Satan put me on his giant rotisserie there...basting me in honey soy sauce...what part of "me" was Satan actually roasting? Because as far as I knew and was taught, the Immortal Soul is beyond such concepts as pleasure or pain...it is neither localised nor centralised...and it is THIS thought which keeps me going...which has sustained me from birth to birth until whatever Karmic debt I have with Source has been paid in full.

Occasionally I will let my Divine Countenance slip, because I long for life's simple pleasures to provide a bit of respite from this role and responsibility, but that is a space, an oasis of being which I need to create within myself..like a "Heaven on Earth", until even that concept is not required anymore.

One day, the wings are going to grow back...once I stop taking them for granted, apparently.

Wishing you all the best.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

There is, in as far as I have seen, no human who does not undergo pain. The pain of each seems more than the others.

The cause of pain is inbuilt in our choice to partake of earth life experience. Then as a pause to heal, we feel joy & bliss as well.

Pain amplified by our thought becomes suffering. Joy accepted without resistance uplifts our reflex vibration becoming bliss.

In the movement of this pendulum between pain & joy within the realm of duality, we are where our attention is at.

This is not about selective amnesia or self hypnosis but rather in transcending the essence of our being at the root of consciousness from a lower to higher vibration, from negativity to joy, irrespective of our external circumstances.

Once we imbibe, then assimilate inner joy & bliss, we automatically become empowered to co-create our own reality. By letting go of anything and everything that does not expand our consciousness. By free will and of course, as always, with Divine assistance.

The essence of God is within each vibration and so no matter how dark we perceive our situation to be, if we seek Divine connect, our wish is granted instantly ... if it is the child within who so seeks, in innocence of trust ... demanding the reclamation of our pristine essence within.

Love & Light

***

Originally Posted by inavalan

Ok. I'll answer to what I assume you asked me.

I don't believe that the soul's progress implies becoming a loving person. I don't believe that we came here to learn to love. I also don't believe that we are perfect or loving souls, that come here and forget to be that way.

Souls aren't perfect out-there, they're on a continuous path of evolvement, progress.

A good analogy for the soul's incarnating on Earth is going to school. We are immature souls that can't function properly on higher planes, yet. Coming to school and be nice and loving might help us, or not, to have a good time in school, but definitely has nothing to do with acquiring the knowledge and the skills for which we have to attend this school.

As far as I know, soul's evolvement implies a progression of mastering instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition, ... We, as humans, mostly mastered our instincts, are dominated by emotions, started to develop an intellect, and have almost no intuition.

Until we master our emotions we can't function on higher planes that are instantaneously thought-responsive, because almost immediately our emotions would avalanche into nightmarish scenarios due to our fears.

The labs during our sojourns on Earth are our dreams and imagination, where we practice creating our realities.

The "unconditional love" some theorize, is actually a misnomer for the non-dual state of being masters of our emotions. Any dual emotion, like "love" (which is actually a feeling) implies its dual emotion, that in a thought-responsive environment takes over immediately. One's "love" generates fear of loss, anger for unfairness, and other such negative emotions and feelings, that ultimately are rooted in fear.

So, I believe that "love" isn't a measure of the soul's progress. I believe that the Universe doesn't need our "love".

There is a different kind of Love that is Divine and pure.Which has no opposite.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by inavalan

[*] Everything needs to progress. It is a universal law.

Progress does not necessarily mean good or bad, it just means moving forward towards a destination.
But all progress is not good. Taking one step forward is as much considered progress as taking five steps forward.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by MattMVS7

Well, I later talked about a pointless form of suffering I've been through in my opening post. Since it was nothing more than a waste of my life, then god, or these heavenly beings, should've healed me of this suffering. Yet, they didn't. Grieving is a pointless form of suffering as well, since it's just misery that takes away the beauty, joy, and worth of a person's life. Many people, who grieve, report that their lives are nothing beautiful or worth living. So, it would be best if god, or these heavenly beings, instantly healed them of their grief, rather than allowing them to go through all that pointless suffering. Also, if suffering is a purification process, then god, or these heavenly beings, have the power to instantly purify the soul. That means people don't have to go through the long grieving process, when they can instantly be healed of their grief. That would certainly save these people from living long, miserable lives, devoid of beauty and worth. In addition, there are life lessons we learn, but all the suffering not being worth learning these lessons. It would be like earning a crumb after having gone through years of torment and misery that strips ones life of beauty and worth.

Yes, suffering is horrible and it takes the joy out of life and we naturally want an end to our suffering.

But I am puzzled by your expectation that God or some heavenly beings should instantly remove our suffering so we can get on with enjoying life. That seems a bit like going to school and the teacher does all our essays and homework - it makes school very easy but at the end we have learned nothing.

As many people have taught, all suffering comes from resisting the reality of how things are. When we resist what is, then we suffer. If we grieve then we are somehow wanting things to be different, to be other than they are. When we fully accept life in this moment exactly as it is, then suffering ends.

You also say:

Since life's all about positive emotions, then it's pointless to go through struggles that take them away. The best life one can live is a life that has the greatest amount of happiness/positive emotions. So, living a life, that consists of many unhappy struggles, is an inferior existence compared to living a long, happy life.

This is your perspective, but the nature of emotions is duality. It is difficult to enjoy only the positive emotions and avoid all the negative emotions. So we aim to master our emotions so they do not overwhelm us. This requires a level of detachment from our personal lives and our little human dramas. These dramas will pass.

Sages throughout history have taught the value of inner serenity which does not depend on our external circumstances. So maybe the best life one can live is a long and serene life, untroubled by any emotional ups and downs.

Peace.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

Do you have a theory on why soul wants or needs to progress then?

Some teachings state that the Soul (the individualised consciousness of Spirit or Being) is always pure but initially undeveloped. Therefore the Soul learns from the experiences of successive temporary personalities. Learning consists of the acquisition of knowledge, the capacity to love, and the development of will. Eventually the Soul finds full expression through the lower personality.

By the time the Soul is ready to move on from this Earthly sphere, that which was initially undeveloped has become a radiant jewel. All the suffering of our human experiences has passed, and the result is worth all that suffering.

Peace.

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Ok. I'll answer to what I assume you asked me.

I don't believe that the soul's progress implies becoming a loving person. I don't believe that we came here to learn to love. I also don't believe that we are perfect or loving souls, that come here and forget to be that way.

Souls aren't perfect out-there, they're on a continuous path of evolvement, progress.

A good analogy for the soul's incarnating on Earth is going to school. We are immature souls that can't function properly on higher planes, yet. Coming to school and be nice and loving might help us, or not, to have a good time in school, but definitely has nothing to do with acquiring the knowledge and the skills for which we have to attend this school.

As far as I know, soul's evolvement implies a progression of mastering instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition, ... We, as humans, mostly mastered our instincts, are dominated by emotions, started to develop an intellect, and have almost no intuition.

Until we master our emotions we can't function on higher planes that are instantaneously thought-responsive, because almost immediately our emotions would avalanche into nightmarish scenarios due to our fears.

The labs during our sojourns on Earth are our dreams and imagination, where we practice creating our realities.

The "unconditional love" some theorize, is actually a misnomer for the non-dual state of being masters of our emotions. Any dual emotion, like "love" (which is actually a feeling) implies its dual emotion, that in a thought-responsive environment takes over immediately. One's "love" generates fear of loss, anger for unfairness, and other such negative emotions and feelings, that ultimately are rooted in fear.

So, I believe that "love" isn't a measure of the soul's progress. I believe that the Universe doesn't need our "love".

Thanks for your reply. I still haven't found Bartholomew's quote but remember it said the soul starts off innocent, which fits with your immature soul comment.

I'll have to agree to disagree re love. Unconditional love doesn't generate fear, loss, anger or unfairness, it is pure.