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  #21  
Old 09-06-2019, 12:47 AM
edithaint edithaint is offline
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Originally Posted by Sapphirez
ocean breeze the reality is that alcohol is literally a poison to the body and damages the liver as well as the kidneys and pretty much all of the organs and entire body, and brain, because they're all connected working intricately together. it is true that the human body is designed to heal itself, but poison is poison and nobody fares well with even a little bit of alcohol because it is a damaging and toxic substance. there isn't philosophy to negate that fact

edithaint there are a lot of ways to live healthfully and create more livelihood and vitality than is accidentally destroyed.. what comes to mind is how our walking on the ground ends up killing bugs, and probably microorganisms and such.. but that also makes me think that walking on the ground barefoot is extremely healthy and would end up killing less bugs, and plantlife, than walking in rubber sole sneakers or boots would.. not sure if you're thinking on that level but I don't really think it's impossible to live a relatively harmless life and we do have the most control on how or whether or not we harm ourselves.. it's often a matter of nescience but it's part of our responsibility here to seek and find answers so we can live better for ourselves and those around us

It isn't just about philosophy. It's about observing the world around us, and realizing how little of that we will ever understand. Yes, alcohol clearly has health risks, but there are also debatable benefits as well. I'd rather not debate it though, as I personally find alcohol distasteful. Yet we ALL have a drug of choice.

Assuming linear spacetime is a human construct in an otherwise unknowable universe, there really is no "creating" OR "destroying" any livelihood or vitality. Everything just is. We ourselves judge a thing as "good" or "bad" based on various criteria, but who are we to really know or prove that there is no cost for every benefit? No benefit to every cost? There is only the everlasting flux of energy and matter before our eyes, which necessities help, health, birth, but also harm, hurt, and death. Everything rises from the ashes of another. If alcohol is only good for one thing, that would be the death and suffering it causes, allowing our perception of an ever-changing world by way of creation and destruction. This isn't only philosophy, but also physics.

That said, I myself prefer not to drink alcohol. And I do prefer to walk barefoot when I'm not wearing heavy leather combat boots. But if I had my way, I would legalize every drug without any legal or medical restriction. Including alcohol. NOT to encourage drug use, dear moderators, only medical freedom and bodily autonomy. I know how certain drugs affect myself and my family, but others should be allowed to make their own choices regardless of consequences. We do what we are meant to do, for better and worse.
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  #22  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:10 AM
Sapphirez Sapphirez is offline
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The reality is that we are here on Earth, and it is in our best interest and its that we abide by its natural laws and honor it and ourselves as part of it. Clearly it is deviation and deprivation from nature that causes disorder, disease, and ultimately death. To that end, alcohol is a deviation from nature that deviates us from our nature and connection to it. True fruits and other plant material naturally ferment and create alcohol, but it is no longer a pure product of Earth or how nature intended it to be consumed so it has consequences and makes us sick. I appreciate what you're saying about how can we know this or that or the reality behind everything, but when it comes to us well here we are on Earth and there is a way to live according to its highest ideals and ours.

I'm not a fan of laws or the government in general, and most of the laws regarding what they deem as drugs are ridiculous, like cannabis for example which is one of the most healing substances on Earth; though I also understand how it can be used as a crutch by some similar to alcohol.. and smoking it can take a toll because smoking in general is not the best thing for us, but the difference is that alcohol is inherently harmful while ingestion of cannabis, especially in its pure unadulterated form, is not.. yet alcohol is legal most places, even if there is an age restriction which is for the mostpart ridiculous, and cannabis is illegal and even a Schedule 1 drug many places with dire repercussions.. I mean there are states legalizing it now but again there are laws restricting its usage and growing of it, while some states still prosecute and persecute people for using it.. but the US govt actually holds patents for the healing efficacy of it and much of this country's existence was built on the plant and it used to be that if you had the land you were supposed to grow it.. anyway sorry for the rambling, but I want to include that Schedule 1 drug classification means that the "drug" has no redeeming healing quality while the patents that very same classifying government hold state knowledge of otherwise..
but ok if you take cannabis and you make it into a prescription drug, distorting it and deviating from its original nature so far,pi it becomes something toxic.. and many of the illegal drugs are just plants that have some healing potential that were mutated into something different, ie cocaine, crack, heroin.. Caffeine and nicotine are actually in the same alkaloid family as cocaine and morphine and such. Not everything in nature is meant for our consumption. which is part of natural laws, that there are certain things intended for our use and some things which just aren't, at least not to consume internally. All prescription drugs are deviations from nature, all of the toxic chemicals common in products and foods are too, and that makes them poison. People wonder what causes cancer when it is clearly all these things, and living against nature in general.. It's just a condition of the body trying to regain its homeostasis and heal itself free of all the toxicity and foreign buildup it can't handle anymore.. Alcohol exacerbates that and is a hefty load for the lymphatic/immune system to deal with. even if it apparently helps us escape from reality for a while, we have to ask the real question of why and what we are trying to escape from... and find the solutions in healthful alternatives that coincide with our nature instead of work against it and us.

Again sorry for the rambling.. I'd rather restrict detrimental deviation from nature but if I had to choose whether to illegalize or legalize all drugs I would legalize them too.. besides that prescription legal drugs are much more atrocious than street drugs.. except perhaps meth, which probably shares similar processes and ingredients with the creation of some legal prescription drugs and other products in the mainstream

The point is we are here to honor the planet we're born to in the magnificent bodies we are born into which are equipped to deal with a lot, but that doesn't mean we should abuse them, and obviously it isn't getting us anywhere good or where or what we're meant to be
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  #23  
Old 09-06-2019, 03:15 AM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphirez
The reality is that we are here on Earth, and it is in our best interest and its that we abide by its natural laws and honor it and ourselves as part of it..........




Well now we are perhaps making a mockery out of physics, biology, and ecology. That does not reflect my understanding of those sciences at all.

Anyway, I don't see numbing the thinker for a bit as escaping from reality. What the thinker thinks is reality is at best just one aspect of my larger current experience of reality. Quieting it down for a bit to allow those other aspects to shine through just allows a different aspect of reality to be experienced more directly, without all of that cerebral interpretation. The thinker thinks he is all that, but he ain't all that.
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  #24  
Old 09-06-2019, 03:42 AM
Sapphirez Sapphirez is offline
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I'm lost as to how you think that dishonoring the Earth and our connection to it is part of ideal physics, biology, and ecology.. The evidence seems clear that it is the mockery of our connection to this planet that cause most all distress and disorder. how do you figure otherwise?

It isn't just numbing the thinker, it is damaging the brain and the body, and that disturbs "the thinker" even further making it more detrimental to our entire being
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  #25  
Old 09-06-2019, 04:12 AM
girlsearching girlsearching is offline
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05-06-2019 12:25 PM
Altair
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Are we making a mockery of Saturday..?
Saturday is the 6th (or 7th) day of the week. It is named after Saturnus, god of renewal, agriculture, and liberation. His Greek equivalent is Cronus. In Hindu polytheism they refer to this planet as Shani. He is the god of hard work, discipline, and asceticism. In both cases we see a male god who is associated with mastery over things..

Most people however associate Saturdays with partying, getting drunk, and definitely not with discipline, mastery over the senses, and asceticism..

Interesting bit. Maybe we need to think more carefully what we all do on this day so we get better in tune with the rhythm of our solar system..
I honestly never knew any of this . I'm not to well versed on Mythology of any culture (Saturnus Roman God) I only know of Hercules(Greek God) but that's it. Thank you for sharing this information with us. Well I don't party I'm a homebody mostly .
  #26  
Old 09-06-2019, 06:40 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Originally Posted by Sapphirez
But to play devil's advocate I am curious what exactly alcohol does to make one feel like things are ok or they're able to let loose and act more free. to an extent.

The dulling of the senses.. sleeping of the mind.. It's pretty much the opposite of what we try to do in spiritual practices, i.e. mastery over the senses, transcending the senses. And there can even be strengthening the senses as the more sadhana you do the more sensitive your senses become. Now look at alcohol! LOL...

Quote:
Originally Posted by girlsearching
I honestly never knew any of this . I'm not to well versed on Mythology of any culture (Saturnus Roman God) I only know of Hercules(Greek God) but that's it. Thank you for sharing this information with us. Well I don't party I'm a homebody mostly .

It's okay if you party or not party. This thread is just exploratory, a bit of fun..

There's some overlap between ancient religions which is interesting. For instance, you'll find Thor/Donar quite similar to Zeus/Jupiter and Freyja bears similarities with Aphrodite/Venus. There's much more I won't get into..
  #27  
Old 09-06-2019, 12:25 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphirez
I'm lost as to how you think that dishonoring the Earth and our connection to it is part of ideal physics, biology, and ecology.. The evidence seems clear that it is the mockery of our connection to this planet that cause most all distress and disorder. how do you figure otherwise?

It isn't just numbing the thinker, it is damaging the brain and the body, and that disturbs "the thinker" even further making it more detrimental to our entire being

I have a rather different understanding of the nature of nature. Mother nature may care about nature, but you as an individual organism are quite insignificant and dispensable.

“Clearly it is deviation and deprivation from nature that causes disorder, disease, and ultimately death.”

Disorder is clearly not caused by a deviation from nature, disorder is the fundamental force driving all of nature. The laws of thermodynamics dictate that nothing can happen in the universe that does not result in an overall increase in disorder, which is also known as an increase in entropy. Disease is caused by nature, viruses, bacteria, and other organisms trying to consume the energy in your flesh while you are still alive, and trying to hijack your cellular machinery to reproduce itself. Order is only possible because something else fell into even greater disorder. And death is caused by the fact that once you have reproduced, keeping you around is just wasting valuable resources that are needed for the younger fertile organisms in the gene pool.

“Not everything in nature is meant for our consumption.”

Nothing in nature is meant for our consumption. Everything is living for itself, and everything is competing with other things and consuming other things to survive. Even the fruit offered up by plants is intended as a bribe (a very small bribe prior to domestication) to get you to disperse it seeds. There is such a thing as symbiosis, but even then it is just an allegiance of two or more organisms to help get both a survival advantage over others.

“People wonder what causes cancer when it is clearly all these things, and living against nature in general.”

Cancer is caused by one of your cells deciding that it no longer wants to play along with all the other cells and decides to start living for itself. One selfish little cell decides to heck with colonial living, I am going to start dividing and taking all of the resources for myself. Keeping billions and trillions of cells in line to keep a complex organism going is a monumental undertaking, having one or more of them break away from the fold is as natural as anything else.

“It's just a condition of the body trying to regain its homeostasis and heal itself free of all the toxicity and foreign buildup it can't handle anymore..”

No plants want you to eat them, in fact most don’t even want us in particular to eat their fruit. But not being able to run away, they instead resort to chemical warfare and try to fill themselves with toxins to make you sick or dead if you try to eat them. Toxins are far more common and more natural than anything we eat that does not poison us. Most of the plants we eat have been modified by humans through selective breeding over the eons to remove or reduce those natural plant toxins. Tomatoes, potatoes, eggplants, all are derived from a line of plants known as the deadly nightshade family. Alcohol, is not in fact one of these defensive plant toxins. It is simply an end product of yeast metabolism, any toxicity it has is simply a coincidence, and if not imbimbed to excess or too frequently, in the larger picture of nature relentlessly trying to poison or eat you, is relatively harmless to an otherwise healthy body.

“Alcohol exacerbates that and is a hefty load for the lymphatic/immune system to deal with. even if it apparently helps us escape from reality for a while, we have to ask the real question of why and what we are trying to escape from... and find the solutions in healthful alternatives that coincide with our nature instead of work against it and us.”

Alcohol does not help me escape from reality, it just slows down and takes the sharper edges off of what my cerebral cortex thinks is reality. It dampens the analytical engine that is always searching for solutions. It allows the underlying emotions to be felt more directly, and pushes the problem solving brain back. The thinking brain, the cerebral cortex, believes it is running the show, it is calling the shots, that its ability to see reality as it is and use its logic and reason to steer the ship is what keeps the whole thing afloat. That is simply not the case. It is much more of a watcher than a controller, it does give its input into the larger mind, but it spends as much time fooling itself about its own importance and control as it does anything else. In all of its grandstanding, chattering, and grabbing of undeserved credit, it often masks the emotions and intuitions coming from deeper in the brain and mind, information that it likes to dismiss as illogical sentiment not based on factual reality. Don’t get me wrong, for all its faults, our ability to use logic and reason is still one of the most valuable assets we have. But the thinker is a bit too self important and a bit delusional about its overall role, which is just one of the many different aspects of the created self. I for one enjoy occasionally slipping it a mickey and getting it to back off a bit so I can relax and reflect a without always having to tolerate its need to explain everything. Of course, once the anesthetic wears off, the thinker percs back up and starts telling itself it is in charge again, but it never really was and never really is. It is really just making up explanations and taking credit for decisions emanating from deeper in the mind. It thought up the ego, and now tells itself that this ego is the self, and that the ego is in charge. This is the illusion, and escaping from it for a bit, if only just a little bit and for a little while, is not an escape from reality, if anything it is an escape from one aspect of the illusion to allow a different aspect of the illusion to shine through a bit brighter, and that can be a relief once and awhile.

In my reality, nature does not work like a disney movie. The majority (not all) of what humans do to modify and control nature slows it from eventually killing us. At least that is how it works in my reality, we all create our realities so perhaps it works different for you. Yet I still find it all quite beautiful as it is, more so when the thinker is quieted down a bit. I believe nature, as it is, not viewed through an anthropomorphic set of glasses, has countless lessons woven throughout its fabric, the Taoist understood this. Everything that happens in my physical universe, results from energy flowing from the unnatural state following the big bang, to a more natural state of complete formlessness, from low entropy to high entropy. Everything that happens along the way, including every living creature, and even everything humans do, is eddies in that current of energy, as it flows from a state of high order to eventual complete disorder.

You can honor the earth all you want, and you probably should, but honor what nature is, not some idyllic picture what we would like to think it is, that just creates more havoc and frustration, and is doomed to fail. Disease, decay, and death are what is natural, every species that ever existed on the earth had to struggle to survive, 99.9% of those species lost that battle and went extinct. Humanity is just another one of those species, and though the thinker has come up with many ways to stave off extinction, it has also pushed itself into an untenable position as it has fooled itself into thinking it is apart from all that, and has slowly chipped away at the ice it is floating on. Humanity is most likely heading for extinction, and that is as natural a thing as anything else. All forms must eventually dissolve to formlessness, this is the law of nature, it is what happens along this path that my consciousness is aware to experience.
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  #28  
Old 09-06-2019, 07:51 PM
edithaint edithaint is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphirez
The reality is that we are here on Earth, and it is in our best interest and its that we abide by its natural laws and honor it and ourselves as part of it. Clearly it is deviation and deprivation from nature that causes disorder, disease, and ultimately death. To that end, alcohol is a deviation from nature that deviates us from our nature and connection to it. True fruits and other plant material naturally ferment and create alcohol, but it is no longer a pure product of Earth or how nature intended it to be consumed so it has consequences and makes us sick. I appreciate what you're saying about how can we know this or that or the reality behind everything, but when it comes to us well here we are on Earth and there is a way to live according to its highest ideals and ours.

I'm not a fan of laws or the government in general, and most of the laws regarding what they deem as drugs are ridiculous, like cannabis for example which is one of the most healing substances on Earth; though I also understand how it can be used as a crutch by some similar to alcohol.. and smoking it can take a toll because smoking in general is not the best thing for us, but the difference is that alcohol is inherently harmful while ingestion of cannabis, especially in its pure unadulterated form, is not.. yet alcohol is legal most places, even if there is an age restriction which is for the mostpart ridiculous, and cannabis is illegal and even a Schedule 1 drug many places with dire repercussions.. I mean there are states legalizing it now but again there are laws restricting its usage and growing of it, while some states still prosecute and persecute people for using it.. but the US govt actually holds patents for the healing efficacy of it and much of this country's existence was built on the plant and it used to be that if you had the land you were supposed to grow it.. anyway sorry for the rambling, but I want to include that Schedule 1 drug classification means that the "drug" has no redeeming healing quality while the patents that very same classifying government hold state knowledge of otherwise..
but ok if you take cannabis and you make it into a prescription drug, distorting it and deviating from its original nature so far,pi it becomes something toxic.. and many of the illegal drugs are just plants that have some healing potential that were mutated into something different, ie cocaine, crack, heroin.. Caffeine and nicotine are actually in the same alkaloid family as cocaine and morphine and such. Not everything in nature is meant for our consumption. which is part of natural laws, that there are certain things intended for our use and some things which just aren't, at least not to consume internally. All prescription drugs are deviations from nature, all of the toxic chemicals common in products and foods are too, and that makes them poison. People wonder what causes cancer when it is clearly all these things, and living against nature in general.. It's just a condition of the body trying to regain its homeostasis and heal itself free of all the toxicity and foreign buildup it can't handle anymore.. Alcohol exacerbates that and is a hefty load for the lymphatic/immune system to deal with. even if it apparently helps us escape from reality for a while, we have to ask the real question of why and what we are trying to escape from... and find the solutions in healthful alternatives that coincide with our nature instead of work against it and us.

Again sorry for the rambling.. I'd rather restrict detrimental deviation from nature but if I had to choose whether to illegalize or legalize all drugs I would legalize them too.. besides that prescription legal drugs are much more atrocious than street drugs.. except perhaps meth, which probably shares similar processes and ingredients with the creation of some legal prescription drugs and other products in the mainstream

The point is we are here to honor the planet we're born to in the magnificent bodies we are born into which are equipped to deal with a lot, but that doesn't mean we should abuse them, and obviously it isn't getting us anywhere good or where or what we're meant to be

Hey, I pretty much agree with you: we are on Earth, of the Earth, made by and for this planet. Earth is not made for humans, humans are made for earth. As are our other animal and plant cousins. Whatever the greater reality beyond our known universe, we are encoded to perceive and interact with our natural world in certain ways. This includes our interactions with medicinal herbs and pathogenic microorganisms. Unfortunately, we truly know way too little about these processes to make any judgement calls about whatever "higher ideals" our biosphere may strive for. We are much too little to fully understand our place. What we do have is what little we do know, and a somewhat predictable pattern of cost, benefit, cause, and effect. I agree with you about the negative effects of alcohol (especially hard liquor) and synthetic drugs. Our chemists are playing with fire, both literally and figuratively.

I prefer herbal (also animal and mineral) medicine, because these medicines have a heritage with strong roots in the deep time. Yes, our lifespan was shorter and our population smaller throughout most of human history, but that was as it should be. Actually, I used to be quite militant about my philosophy of medicine, and would violently prevent friends and family from taking man-made drugs. Even now, I encourage willow over aspirin, opium over synthetic opioids, herbal cannabis over dabs, dronabinol, CBD oil, etc. My husband and I also refuse modern antibiotics and vaccines, although I do agree with the basic immunological premise of such things as mithradatism and variolation.

But none of these rules I follow result from any qualms about going against nature. Not anymore, at least. While I once identified as a naturopath, primitivist, and environmentalist, now I realize that everything is natural. Everything synthetic, artificial, man-made, etc is still natural, as man is a product of nature. Everything is primitive. Civilized as we are, advanced as our technology may be, evolved into whatever comes next, the primitive is still deep in our bones. The environment is subject to change, just as we are; even if we find our current climate inhospitable to ourselves and all other known life, something new will rise up from the ashes, as death must always result in birth. Life is everlasting and will always find a way to express itself. There is no such thing as going against nature, only going against what we know. And that is indeed very little.

These cognitive limitations of humanity are precisely why I will probably always favor herbal medicine. I say herbal, animal, and mineral medicine for the above reason: I use what I perceive as "closer" to the earth, with an awareness that even "synthetic" medication is of nature. The line we draw between "natural" and "unnatural" is largely subjecive -- some would say gardening and farming are unnatural processes, while others would argue that CBD oil is a natural product -- and like you said, nature can certainly cause harm, including many so-called natural remedies. I personally support the use of essential oils, but I could also argue that some of these are even more dangerous and "unnatural" than alcohol. Alcohol is produced by our immune cells as a defense against other microorganisms. It is basically death in a bottle, which makes it both useful and dangerous. But it does not make us "unconscious" in any way, only "differently" conscious. Everything is consciousness.

Again, I repeat: I myself do NOT drink alcohol, nor does my husband, and we do not enjoy the company of drunk people. My mother is an alcoholic, as are both of his parents. His mother has been staying sober though. Aside from her many prescription medications, which we also do not use, because we personally find them distasteful and ineffective for our purposes. Not because they go against nature, but because they go against OUR nature. We do what we are meant to do.

Likewise, the people who drink alcohol and take their plastic-wrapped pills are doing exactly what they are meant to do at this point in their lives. Yes, they may cause harm to themselves or others, but it seems fairly evident to me that pain and death are some of the most predictable, unpreventable, and possibly necessary forces of nature. Without death and loss, there is no birth or gain. No flux, no change, for us to perceive as spacetime. Who are we, as tiny animals, to say that any "higher ideal" should not include pain or death? Without birth, we would not die. But without death, we would not be born. Drunkenness and debauchery are just another gear in this great cycle.

I too apologize for the rambling. This -- our ecosystem, and how we fit in with the greater cosmos -- is a very passionate topic for me. I used to struggle against technological progress and environmental change with much more anger, fear, and sadness. But since I accepted our current (often unpleasant) era of humanistic hubris as yet another natural process in our greater world, these feelings of repulsion toward many man-made creations have somewhat faded. Now I would rather protect and provide for my own family by whatever means, which does include our own rules about certain drugs, especially alcohol and antibiotics. Otherwise, the world has every right to burn in bright boozy flames.
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“You have evolved from worm to man, but much within you is still worm. Once you were apes, yet even now man is more of an ape than any of the apes.” -- Friedrich Nietzsche

"The universe is random. Not inevitable. It's simple chaos." -- Walter White

"Of course it is happening inside your head, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" -- Albus Dumbledore
  #29  
Old 09-06-2019, 07:57 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Just because nature is neutral doesn't mean humans are. Humans need living space and a clean and healthy environment, as do many other species. Nihilism and fatalism don't belong in a healthy human society and thankfully we have inventive minds and compassionate teachers who seek to aid humanity and improve things. The rest are just excuses, being careless because ''why bother?'' This sort of ''argument'' has no place here..

And more importantly, this is all nice and well.. but it doesn't belong here. I made this thread specifically about a day and its connection with a god and with certain characteristics. The alcohol and party lifestyle was just one example, but we've gone overboard here. I'm guilty of it too and should have phrased things differently. But I posted this in Astrology for rather obvious reasons..

I don't think there's actually any possible way for proper contributions any more. I've shared an observation and misalignment, and did not have any intentions to start this sort of 'discussion' on the ''meaning of life''. So if a moderators read this, please lock the thread..
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:30 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Well now, when someone pulls on a thread, we never know what might come off. Its just nature.
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