What does spiritual development actually mean?

Originally Posted by Altair

IMO, you'll find a lot of 'spiritual' people and guru's being old. Are they not speaking from a perspective of ageing, reduced testosterone levels, being settled, reduced quality of senses such as smell and taste, having the things they want in life etc. It's the privileged and the dull preaching a message to those who aren't privileged or have their senses still going strong. So I'm always cautious when I see a bearded old dude telling me I need to do X or Y. People need to understand this, that much of spirituality tells us something about people specifically, and where they are in life, and not so much the absolute truth of God..

The priveledged and dull preaching? Often older people have the experience that the younger generation lacks. But I'd agree with you, people's backgrounds help shape their Spirituality. As does yours, I'd guess.

Originally Posted by Altair

Don't forget though, that even then every day you/we still seek pleasure. In your food, in other people, in the movies you watch, in your hobbies. There is no way for you to avoid it or transcend it, not even if your senses are getting dull. Spirituality is no different, people may experience pleasant feels and bliss and they want it again, or they are curious (mental pleasure). God we can pretty much see, and perhaps IS the King and Queen of pleasure..

Seeking pleasure is a choice and just because someone has transcended pleasure it doesn't mean they have to forget about it.

Originally Posted by Altair

It's only in spiritual communities where people, and many guru's, seem not in touch with this most obvious phenomena, that spirituality too is about pleasure. People may think they've ''transcended'' something but they drop the blue or the red and go with green or purple cause they like it more..

This is a mindset but it's not specifically about Spirituality by any means. It's actually a psychological condition. Basically though, people can look for places where they can find pleasure if it desn't exist in their Lives otherwise. Thinking they're transcended often comes from ignoring what it is they're trying to transcend, but all they're really doing is turning a blind eye to it.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Indeed. Many people think of karma in terms of rewards and punishments, but it makes more sense to consider karma as the process of restoring balance.

The original translation for the Sanskrit word was "action" and then it became "cause and effect". Western Spirituality and the meaning has changed to fit the reward/punishment or good.bad mentality. What people mistake 'karma' for is "kamma-vipaka". "Kamma" means "intention" and kamma-vipaka is the results of intention, very simply. Both Mother Teresa and Lady Diana *and a few others) that you should do things and not expect a reward, because doing something for gain holds a different kamma-vipaka than doing it because that's the kind of person you are. As Jesus said, "You sow what you reap."


As far as I'm aware the Hindus didn't give astrology much truck in their religion so Libra governing karma???? Neither karma not kamma-vipaka has anything to do with the stars.

What we're experiencing on the planet now is not karma but kamma-vipaka as the results of intention. It has been the intention to forget nature and to strip the planet of its resources and no intention of worrying about anything else. The kamma-vipaka is that there is plenty of wealth but more species going extinct every day.

Whatever you intend to do - or not - with that information will have its results.

Originally Posted by Siemens

Name one thing that has more substance than pleasure.

Fulfilment, wholeness, equanimity, Oneness with yourself and your surroundings. Pleasure is fleeting and is often conditional, those aren't.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Siemens

*Is spiritual development the same thing than character development?
*And what is the goal of spiritual development?
*What is it good for?
*For what purpose should we develop?

To end any suffering...
emotional, psychological, physical.
Suffering takes many forms and is tolerable to some and not to others.
Confusion is suffering
(While I'm at it, ha...For Christians that want to give their burdens
to Jesus or God...it is a 'burden'...even if you lose your keys and are 'confused' or anxious...all of that is a 'burden to be given'.)
Anger is suffering, as is pride, jealousy, selfishness...anything that does not feel 'good'.

This place is a place to learn and get rid of the blocks, obstacles or mind clouds....
that hide the Truth of Reality...that all is bliss and love and wonderful.*

*If anyone has not realized the above, hopefully you will one day ...even if for only a glimpse.

However, if one is not unhappy with his situation...why seek getting rid of any clouds?
But, I can assure you...whatever little content life you are leading, and that is sweet, indeed...
there is always more you can feel and experience.

This is just my take regarding spiritual 'development'...it is an awakening to more than what appears to be ...with 5 senses.

I would recommend for younger people, asking these sort of questions, who may not have even heard of this spiritual classic:
Read the thin book by Richard Bach, 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull', 1970.
Nothing complicated or High-flalooten...a simple, sweet book about 'More'.
And about 1 in 10,000 gets that...that there is more to be experienced while here...not just in an Afterlife.
Best wishes to you.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

As far as I'm aware the Hindus didn't give astrology much truck in their religion...

Hmmm. You seem to be unaware of the whole field of Vedic astrology, an ancient approach to astrology which is quite different from Western astrology.

Peace

................................

Originally Posted by iamthat

Hmmm. You seem to be unaware of the whole field of Vedic astrology, an ancient approach to astrology which is quite different from Western astrology.

Peace

So how does karma/action fit into Vedic astrology?

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Siemens

Most of you consider yourselves as being spiritual or spiritual evolving. But what does spiritual development actually mean? Is there a difference between spiritual development and other kinds of development a human can go through (like learning how to drive a car, how to use a credit card, or things you learn at school)? Or entails literally each kind of development a person undergoes - no matter how profane or earthly it is - inevitable a form of spiritual growth? Is spiritual development the same thing than character development?

And what is the goal of spiritual development? What is it good for? For what purpose should we develop?

sometimes it can really depend. For me it's growth and a opening. I believe to really feel it you have to be open to and ready for the change that occurs. To find your true spiritually you have to let it happen you can't make it happen. I believe spiritually is extremely individualized you shouldn't be influenced by others on how, what, and when it happens.

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by hallow

sometimes it can really depend. For me it's growth and a opening. I believe to really feel it you have to be open to and ready for the change that occurs. To find your true spiritually you have to let it happen you can't make it happen. I believe spiritually is extremely individualized you shouldn't be influenced by others on how, what, and when it happens.

Well said. And I agree.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Altair

Many stuff I enjoy got nothing to do with love, in fact I'd say it's a needlessly complicated concept. There's just kindness, enjoyment, care, excitement, attachment, the senses, intellectual curiosity etc. All of these are forms of pleasure. I find ''love'' a big and needlessly complicated concept, just like ''suffering'' and ''happiness''. They're abstractions put on a pedestal yet we have much simpler words to describe what we feel...

Okay, this is good. I also developed a kind of anti-love-attitude to a certain degree. I’m not against love per se but against overemphasising it.
Momentarily I think pleasure/joy is what we all are striving for. Love is just one out of many forms of pleasure. And I see no reason to believe that our souls were obsessed with this one form only – while neglecting all others. (I use the words pleasure, happiness, joy, well-being,... synonymous to each other.)

Originally Posted by Altair

And they all have that same antagonism towards creation, seeing it as a curse that must be overcome. Any spiritual tradition that doesn't celebrate life and the world but shouts ''idolatry!'' and ''desires are evil!'' are traditions that should be scrutinized more, not taken as some holy grail. It's a tradition that's roughly 2500/3000 years old and a consequence of a civilization-induced misery and existential crisis. A healthy human society doesn't need all this stuff about escaping and hating the world.

Yes, this is true. I came to similar although not identical conclusions. The denial or rejection of pleasure in form of food, other people, movies, hobbies, or material products is pure nonsense. But I know from my own experience that transient relinquishment of pleasurable things can increase pleasure afterwards. For example you could see a religious motivated Lenten season as a tool to increase you ability to enjoy food after the period of fasting. For example, if you don’t eat fat and sugar for a while you will be able to enjoy it more intense after prohibition.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Fulfilment, wholeness, equanimity, Oneness with yourself and your surroundings. Pleasure is fleeting and is often conditional, those aren't.

Fulfilment, wholeness, equanimity,... all these things are forms of pleasure.
Pleasure is everything that feels good. And it can be elicited by material things as well as the things you mentioned...



- - - - - -
I will answer the other posts later when I have more time....