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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 24-01-2017, 05:40 AM
jimrich jimrich is offline
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Dysfunctional quotes

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
By the way you worded your initial post, I thought you were disagreeing with people who choose to make their experiences impersonal and I was agreeing with you
Unfortunately, the entire commentary is not quoted here so I have no idea what you are referring to.

Quote:
....then I read "to you"
I went back to the post and found this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
"Seriously though the lack of personal pronoun use to indicate some kind of 'transcendence' of the personal is plain silly."
So I wrote: "To you!", meaning that I see this as your opinion or personal experience but not as a disagreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
... and "to each their own" which reads like you are disagreeing with me agreeing with you. Thus I am confused now.
Here again, I've gone back to the original commentary to find this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
Yes, it is all semantics and why I left the path of Advaita Vedanta and embraced the path of Tantra fully after that. It was the next step in my spiritual evolution and the most logical route for me to take.
I wrote "To each his own." to merely indicate that I am OK with whatever path or process you or anybody wishes to take or follow but not to agree or disagrees with your choices.
I don't see agreeing or disagreeing as a very healthy way to discuss things whereas personal choices might work better in a discussion. I have my unique preferences and assume that others also have unique preferences as well and those preferences do not need to be identical for me to have a useful, friendly discussion with others.
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  #12  
Old 24-01-2017, 05:54 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimrich
I just came from a local meeting of seekers and experienced non-dualists and noticed a tendency to make speeches, quote major spiritual teachers BUT rarely ever use the 'I' word to speak of their own, direct experiences and/or understandings.
I come from a background of sharing meetings in support groups so, using the 'I' word is both easy and also way more significant to me than listening to pompous lectures, theories or disguised advice from self appointed authorities so some "spiritual" meetings are both irritating and uninformative.
If others could or would just talk about their own direct, personal and ACTUAL experiences with awakening, realizing, knowing, doing, feeling, understanding, I could learn a lot from that and take away a lot more from such simple HONESTY. The pompous though emotionally safer use of words like: we, you, they, them, us, others, all, everyone, etc. rather than the more honest and authoritative terms such as: I, me, my, mine, my self, for me, etc. work a lot better for me and gives the speaker some credibility.
I'd much rather hear or read of someone's own, personal awakening than have them tell me how it's going to be or feel for me, us, them, we or you.
"I am that" carries way more authority and meaning for me than to be told "YOU ARE THAT! ...or We are that, etc." by some self made authority figure. I know this is just about semantics but I personally prefer and can HONOR statements that come from someone's own, direct experiences rather than speeches and pompous quotes, etc.
This is your original post.

How I interpreted it, was that you preferred that others use personal terms to describe their experiences, yet the moment "I" did, you went "to you!" do you see it now?

I thought you were saying you thought that people who used impersonal terms were being pompous and arrogant. I replied by saying "yeah, it is silly" but maybe being pompous and arrogant isn't silly? I don't know.

Wait up...yeah, it's coming through now.

Lately, I have been advised to "own my own statements" because I have got into the habit of using the "royal we" or the "royal one".

To quote an internet meme..."one simply does not..." it should be "I simply do not".

I guess some people...some people like to believe their experience isn't as personal as they'd like to think...and say "we would be well-advised..." instead of saying "I would be well advised.."

I can see where you are coming from because I get my own butt dragged over the coals for it from time to time. It happened again yesterday.

By saying "we" and "us" it sounds like a lecture, It is seen as an appeal to inclusion, but some of "us" or rather, I should say that "I" tend to do it out of habit alone.

So, I can see where you are coming from now. It doesn't really have anything to do with duality or non duality, or anything to do with semantics, it's all about people not owning their experiences, using deflection to avoid any negative repercussions thereof...or just doing it because they have a multiple personality or something. ;)
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  #13  
Old 24-01-2017, 06:18 AM
jimrich jimrich is offline
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I sat with a teacher up in Ojai, CA and at the end of the discussion about the Absolute, he asked me what would be left if I fell dead on the floor of a heart attack and, after thinking about that for a moment, I said, "Some form of consciousness or awareness would be left here." He seemed happy with my answer. Now, if asked such a question, I'd say, "I/me would be left here if my body suddenly died!" I may not have much more to say about this "I/me" that is left here after bodily death but that's more about semantics than my experience or feelings.
When my brother in law died of cancer, he = the living being/personality, was right there, invisibly hovering over his dead body and was as alive and real as he ever was in a body! He was and still is right here WITHOUT the need of any body! This was and still is true for my mother, grandfather, several of my late wife's family members and also my late wife. They are all still very alive and well in the Afterlife which has shown me that there is way more to life and Being than what is experienced in the physical plane.
The problem with discussing any of that usually comes up over SEMANTICS and WORDS more than anything else. I cannot PROVE that my relatives are still alive & right here nor can I prove that I will still be here and alive and well after this form dies, mostly because our culture's language does not honor such non-material things yet many other cultures and languages do! Even though my late brother in law was absolutely obvious to me (and my late wife), I would be hard pressed to find adequate words to describe what happened, how I felt and what my late wife saw, felt and experienced. It was really beyond any words that I currently have other than stuff like: surreal, spiritual, mystical, mysterious, strange, esoteric, telepathic, impressions, feelings, knowing, sensing, etc., none of which meet the requirements of proof or fact.
It was once pointed out to me that other languages and cultures like India, South America, Australia and the Far East contain concepts and words that cannot be found in the West and that even in the West, there are certain "secret" or hidden languages and words that are rarely found in common everyday use so it seems that while studying semantics might help to understand some things, a person may need to go beyond: words, concepts and the limited "mind" in order to fully understand certain things such as: Advaita, Non-duality, the Afterlife, Reality, Spirit, god, Infinity, That, Consciousness, Christ, etc.
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  #14  
Old 24-01-2017, 06:27 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is online now
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Well, I guess if I was asked the same question, I would honestly respond with "whatever it is, I wouldn't know about it anyway, so I have no idea".

The semantics come when trying to describe the indescribable, like I said before.

My mind got blown when the same heiroglyphs appear in ruins of ancient cities in Pakistan and those found in South America (Peru) - they have been dated to about 12,000 years ago...now, how did that happen? but that's a story for another day.
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  #15  
Old 24-01-2017, 06:50 AM
jimrich jimrich is offline
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Smile Shame binds

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
Lately, I have been advised to "own my own statements" because I have got into the habit of using the "royal we" or the "royal one".
I was taught to use 'I' statements in self help sharing meetings and later came to see how Shame forces folks to avoid 'I' statements in favor of safer and more acceptable 'you' statements. After several months at sharing meetings, I got very good at saying 'I' and Shame gradually evaporated.

Quote:
To quote an internet meme..."one simply does not..." it should be "I simply do not".
For me, the form of the statement is not all that important but 'I' contains less shame and feels less bossy or demanding than "one" or "you". It comes down to my intentions and I feel better about saying "I do not..." rather than "one dose not..." or "we should not...", etc. And it also feels more HONEST to say 'I'.

Quote:
I guess some people...some people like to believe their experience isn't as personal as they'd like to think...and say "we would be well-advised..." instead of saying "I would be well advised.."
If the person is carrying Shame, the use of "we" is safer and less painful or fearful than 'I'.

Quote:
I can see where you are coming from because I get my own butt dragged over the coals for it from time to time. It happened again yesterday.

By saying "we" and "us" it sounds like a lecture, It is seen as an appeal to inclusion, but some of "us" or rather, I should say that "I" tend to do it out of habit alone.
I believe that "habit" is taught to us early on by our parents and others who resent or carry Shame about the 'I' word so they MAKE us use more impersonal but SAFER words just to make them selves feel good and not threatened.

Quote:
So, I can see where you are coming from now. It doesn't really have anything to do with duality or non duality, or anything to do with semantics, it's all about people not owning their experiences, using deflection to avoid any negative repercussions thereof...or just doing it because they have a multiple personality or something. ;)
IMO, they do it because of SHAME! They're ashamed of anything personal or "selfish".
Shame is a very deep subject if someone wants to explore it. Shame was the first emotional pain that Adam and Eve experienced when they had to leave the Garden! Shame is a killer and infects most cultures. Shame is the horrifying companion to Self Contempt and forces humans to commit most if not all of the wrong and bad things we do. Shame says I was born wrong/bad and nothing can ever be done to fix that! I simply am WRONG/BAD but, if I pray enough or play my cards right, god MIGHT come and save me! Shame silently runs through most cultures and causes all the crime and horror that we see here! But there is a way to beat Shame if someone wants to be free of it! It's called SELF LOVE & RESPECT.
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  #16  
Old 24-01-2017, 06:56 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is online now
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Hmmm...I guess that for some it could be 'shame' whilst for others, it's comes out of a need for inclusion and not feeling so isolated. By making "I" statements, it feels I am cutting myself off from everything, but by saying 'we' it feels like I am appealing to 'anybody else who feels the same way I do".
I wouldn't say it is 'shame' really, but more like a general insecurity; "Is what I am saying okay?" ..."maybe if I say "we" it may resonate with another who thinks the same way..."

I learned to use "I" statements whilst being assertive.
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  #17  
Old 24-01-2017, 07:09 AM
jimrich jimrich is offline
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Telepathy

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
My mind got blown when the same heiroglyphs appear in ruins of ancient cities in Pakistan and those found in South America (Peru) - they have been dated to about 12,000 years ago...now, how did that happen? but that's a story for another day.
IMO, that happens if there is telepathic communications between the peoples or that they all had the same ideas and concepts due to the Oneness of Consciousness/Life. It seems that many ancient cultures knew more and had more than us modern folks do. I'd say that spirit, consciousness, being, the Absolute, or Energy can do whatever it likes or wants, including Alien activities, regardless of how current people see or feel about all of it. Most of the current metaphysical folks just say it's a "mystery" and don't even bother to explain much of what happens in life.
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  #18  
Old 24-01-2017, 07:30 AM
jimrich jimrich is offline
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Toxic Shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
Hmmm...I guess that for some it could be 'shame' whilst for others, it's comes out of a need for inclusion and not feeling so isolated.
Which is also an aspect of Shame. Shame says: You're not good enough and need to feel included or acceptable so stop saying 'I' - that's selfish! Shame also tells us: When you say 'I', I feel isolated from you and lonely!

Quote:
By making "I" statements, it feels I am cutting myself off from everything, but by saying 'we' it feels like I am appealing to 'anybody else who feels the same way I do".
Both of those can he true depending on the INTENTIONS behind the uses of 'I' or 'we', etc. and the INTENTIONS of the one hearing or seeing my 'I'/'we' statements. This brings up the subtleties of communications were things need to be carefully examined to make our intentions clear to each other. My 1st wife and I had very bad communications but, after a few years in therapy, I finally learned how to communicate better so my 2nd wife and I had a much better marriage.

Quote:
I wouldn't say it is 'shame' really, but more like a general insecurity; "Is what I am saying okay?" ..."maybe if I say "we" it may resonate with another who thinks the same way..."
When you study Shame, you will see how it affects and infects just about everything including feelings of insecurity or security and problems with semantics (communication), attitudes, misunderstanding, fear, expectations, confusion, anger, hostility, hurt feelings, disrespect, etc. Shame has been called the "Master Emotion" (by John Bradshaw https://www.goodreads.com/work/quote...that-binds-you) because it affects all other emotions, beliefs and behaviors in very damaging ways.
Google: Toxic Shame [http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-toxic-shame/]

Quote:
I learned to use "I" statements whilst being assertive.
Me too. I still have a little trouble being Assertive though!

Last edited by jimrich : 24-01-2017 at 07:36 AM. Reason: more info
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  #19  
Old 24-01-2017, 07:52 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is online now
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I don't understand how shame is associated with loneliness and isolation.

I can understand it when people say "I am not good enough to be with others" but not when it's "I am good enough, maybe too good for others and that's why I am totally left out of everything".

Maybe "shame" is one of those subconscious emotions that people are not even aware they are experiencing, because if you were to ask me "do you feel shame?", I can honestly, in my heart of hearts say 'no, I do not'.

Then it becomes "am I ashamed because somebody else says I am?" and "what would they know about it anyway?" and "what gives them the authority to say I am 'ashamed' or 'fearful?" and "Is it just what another person only believes about me, irrespective of whether it is true or not for me?" and on and on this goes.

In the end I go "STOP IT, I am NOT afraid, ashamed or any of these emotional labels being placed upon me".

However, if shame is an emotion I am not consciously aware of, it makes sense, but there's no way I'll believe another person when they say "This is how you look like to ME" because the number of perceptual lenses this must filter through to get it 'palatable' by the brain of another is phenomenal.

It's like trying to pass a message down the line and the 'end message' is nowhere near the original one sent, because people will only repeat what they thought they heard, or put their own little spin on it. It is called cognitive bias.

So, if you think I am 'ashamed' you are entitled. If I think I am 'not ashamed', I am entitled...and in the end, neither of us nor anybody else out there (and I CAN use the plural in this regard) would be any the wiser as to the reason why I project my experiences or my mental state whilst doing so. *hugs*
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  #20  
Old 24-01-2017, 08:44 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is online now
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Yeah, so my guides and all are laughing now going "Necro is a shameless hussy" - but it's true! it's oh so true.

Not being able to experience shame has put me in hot water more than once, I can tell you.

Besides that, it's impossible to reconcile "shame" with an "impulsive personality" anyway.

I wouldn't go and dance in the street naked, but that has nothing to do with being ashamed. It is self-preservation due to the shame of others (i.e I will go to jail) and besides that, what is seen cannot be 'unseen'. :p
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