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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 25-12-2016, 09:49 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
The non-dualistic mode is often said to be "truer" because oneness is perceived more readily and many, if not most, feel that oneness is our truest state of being, and it is considered pure because it is viewed as a solitary flow or vibration and not a combination or variation of vibrations.
From my perspective non-dualistic mode excludes oneness as it excludes manyness because 'one' depends on 'many'.
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Originally Posted by Starman
In this world the primordial vibration manifests in various different ways giving the illusion of duality, and as duality is frequently perceived as an "illusion" some see it as "less true." Although illusion does not mean it is not real, or true, it just means that it is illusive and highly changeable. The actual spiritual foundation of our being is much more steady, stable, an solid, than that which is on the surface.
From my perspective duality is not illusion. What is similar to an illusion however is the way phenomena appear to be real or true or to exist from their own side.
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  #12  
Old 25-12-2016, 10:29 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
From my perspective non-dualistic mode excludes oneness as it excludes manyness because 'one' depends on 'many'.

From my perspective duality is not illusion. What is similar to an illusion however is the way phenomena appear to be real or true or to exist from their own side.
I respect that different people have different perspectives on this. The words which we use and how we
understand those words, in my opinion, has a lot to do with how we see things. I do not embrace that the
concept of one can not exist without the concept of many. One can exist without two but two can not
exist without one. Divine truth is singular and not dependent on anything else. Actually the words which we
use are inadequate to describe non-duality. Regardless, non-duality does not exist because of duality and
that is one reason why I reject that one-ness can not exist without many-ness. Often I use synonyms to
better understand words related to a concept. For instance here are some synonyms for the concept of
one-ness.

Connective-ness
Union
Harmony
Joined
Attunement
Unification
Atonement
Wholeness
Love
Cooperation
Holiness
Agreement
Concordance
Symmetry
Combination
Singleness
Accord
Radius of a circle
Continuity
Balance
Consistency
Totality
Solidarity
Oneness

There are written and spoken languages which have no concept, translation, or a similar word to the words
which we use who speak English. The more we elaborate on something, or interpret something, the further
away from that something we get. We can get to a point where all we have is our concept, or interpretation,
of that something and not that something itself. Higher truths exist in silence as they transcend thoughts and
words; yet verbal discussion and mental speculation on these truths can be useful.
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  #13  
Old 25-12-2016, 11:16 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
...Actually the words which we
use are inadequate to describe non-duality.
As soon as language is applied there is necessarily duality. Every name assigned necessarily implies its opposite because what called X is necessarily different from non-X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Regardless, non-duality does not exist because of duality ...
Here I cannot agree because non-X obviously depends on X.
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  #14  
Old 25-12-2016, 12:29 PM
A human Being A human Being is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Here I cannot agree because non-X obviously depends on X.
But isn't that the illusion of duality? That there's a distinction between X and non-X, when in fact they're one and the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
From my perspective non-dualistic mode excludes oneness as it excludes manyness because 'one' depends on 'many'.
I'm also curious as to how you've arrived at this conclusion? I might be missing something, I thought non-dualism and oneness were synonymous.
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  #15  
Old 25-12-2016, 02:42 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
But isn't that the illusion of duality? That there's a distinction between X and non-X, when in fact they're one and the same?
Well, you may of course reject all language conventions and e.g. call a car 'apple' although an apple is not a car and a car is not an apple. But I would not call it an illusion that you can drive a car but not an apple and eat an apple but not a car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
I'm also curious as to how you've arrived at this conclusion? I might be missing something, I thought non-dualism and oneness were synonymous.
According to my experience 'oneness' isn't the appropriate expression because it affirms what isn't in non-duality. 'Oneness' from my perspective refers to an imagination of something which contradicts the fact that there is no 'something' in non-duality because any 'something' would refer to an object. Some call it 'ineffable' but then they make many words about it as if what they can imagine and express with words would be rightly called 'ineffable'.
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  #16  
Old 25-12-2016, 02:42 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
As soon as language is applied there is necessarily duality. Every name assigned necessarily implies its opposite because what called X is necessarily different from non-X. Here I cannot agree because non-X obviously depends on X.

X and non-x are mathematical concepts, non-duality is not a concept. Concepts are mental constructs with borders, a mental framework. Non-duality is an experience which has no opposite, no framework, no borders, etc. Non-duality is not objective; in fact it is all encompassing. I am expressing here as best I can what I have experienced of non-duality, so this is my truth as best I can explain it. The finite may be dependent on the infinite but the infinite can exist without the finite. Opposites can only exist in duality; they do not exist in non-duality. Non-duality is not the opposite of duality rather duality is contained within non-duality and not along side, or opposite of it; in my humble opinion. But regardless of our differing points of view I do thank you for the discussion.
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  #17  
Old 25-12-2016, 02:45 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
non-duality is not a concept.
you cannot apply a concept and say that it isn't a concept. A concept is the meaning concomittant to a linguistic expression applied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Non-duality is an experience which has no opposite
Non-duality is not duality. That is the meaning of 'non-duality'. In that sense is what is non-X the opposite or - maybe better - negation of X.
X here is just a variable standing for any designator/name.
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  #18  
Old 25-12-2016, 02:48 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
you cannot apply a concept and say that it isn't a concept.
Yes I can, because the word "non-duality" may be a concept, but me sharing of my experience of what I call non-duality is not.
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  #19  
Old 25-12-2016, 02:50 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Hello,

I just have a curiosity.

What is with in Oneness? Is all inclusive in this?
If so then would think would be inclusive of both the dualities and non-duality and there is neither, just what is.
If not then would think there is no Oneness, but individual expression.

Will admit though, that this is a bit of a mind game. For it is attempting to disguise between multiple perspectives of things and the connections found/ observed/realized or not.

In living life notice there is both the individual expression and connections with in these. It may be all stems from a common source, but in their expressions and one perspectives of such there appears to be diversity. All, becoming and within the consciousness, IMO.

If not all with in the consciousness, then would anyone be aware of such in order to point out there is or isn't this or that/ this and that?
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  #20  
Old 25-12-2016, 02:54 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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I agree Moonglow, it is a bit of a mind game.
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