Being Vegetarian

[Altair]

When I ate beef and pork I could really feel my energy staying 'down', and I don't mean physical energy, but the kind of energy that makes spiritual practice worthwhile. Beef in particular is just really bad. I continued eating chicken for a couple of years.. thought to myself ''Well chicken ain't as bad for the environment so I can continue eating one type of meat...'' However, when I gave up all meat I almost instantly felt better mentally.. less stress and depression, more joy and frivolity instead.. My body feels less heavy which makes it easier to meditate.. If you still feel like eating meat I can recommend to at least give up the larger animals.. mammals seem more ''complex'' lifeforms if you look at their bonds etc., so possibly we consume more stress and create more karma by eating them..

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

''Pipe dreams'' ..? That's not very nice Debrah!

Starting with ''billions'' of this or that makes every ethical stance problematic. Many attempts to create a better world all seem to stumble against that very same wall. But we have to start somewhere, and small! Changing our diets or buying solar panels are some of those small steps..! And maybe we don't all have the time for a cow, but it should be no problem with chickens. Their space requirements aren't huge, their food is cheap, so yes every medium sized garden can have chickens! Slaughter isn't necessary.

Debrah, correct me if I'm wrong but I sense stress from you. You clearly have your heart in the right place but we disagree on specifics, and this seems to cause stress. When it comes to meat and mass dairy production I agree with you. Surely it's more important to realize we agree on the great lines here.. than our disagreement on garden chickens!

A pipe dream is an unattainable or fanciful wish. What is 'not nice' about that?

As for the rest of your comment here, anytime animals are used by humans for what they can produce, they suffer. That garden hen had a little chicken brother who got drowned, gassed, suffocated or ground up. There is cruelty in that garden hen's existence.

And yes, I am stressed as are most vegans. We are stressed because we live in a world that has no problem with treating animals badly by degrees. With some of those 'treatments' being so barbaric, that many here would think that surely I must be lying. But I assure you that if I were to tell you, I would not be lying.

Not only do we have to live in a world where everyone espouses the opposite of our deeply held beliefs about animals and kindness, but we also have to defend ourselves from hostility, defend our belief in compassion and mercy and defend always, our right to even speak on it. Stressed, you betcha I'm stressed a lot. Grief does that.

[Altair]

It's not ''nice'' to call my suggestion a pipe dream because you devalue hopes and aspirations of other people by using such loaded terms. I could say global veganism would be a pipe dream too, but I won't. I support all paths that eliminate slaughter, that reduce animal protein and increase plant based protein in diets, restaurants, etc.

As for egg production... Yes, to start a new system you would have to do it with the chickens of today. However, you can build from that and share the gains with other people who also have chickens and who decide not to slaughter.. And you let these chickens mix. I understand it is not a vegan solution, but I view this positively as there doesn't have to be slaughter and it's very low impact.

More chicken news.. not directly related but interesting nonetheless..

How the chicken nugget became the true symbol of our era

This is what happens when you turn the natural world into a profit-making machine.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...bol-of-our-era

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

It's not ''nice'' to call my suggestion a pipe dream because you devalue hopes and aspirations of other people by using such loaded terms. I could say global veganism would be a pipe dream too, but I won't. I support all paths that eliminate slaughter, that reduce animal protein and increase plant based protein in diets, restaurants, etc.

As for egg production... Yes, to start a new system you would have to do it with the chickens of today. However, you can build from that and share the gains with other people who also have chickens and who decide not to slaughter.. And you let these chickens mix. I understand it is not a vegan solution, but I view this positively as there doesn't have to be slaughter and it's very low impact.

More chicken news.. not directly related but interesting nonetheless..


https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...bol-of-our-era

You can call vegan hopes a pipe dream all you want. We hear it all the time despite the fact that our aspirations are primarily for the benefit of animals as opposed to being 'exclusively for ourselves'. The other benefits (health, global health) are bonus's. We're also subjected to all manner of accusations and bizarre notions of failing health.

The difference is that our 'dreams' don't include using anyone for food. Our pipe dream do include better health and a healthier environment and an end to the #1 cause of human caused species extinction. AND our pipe dream is catching on, leading more corporations to realize that there is merit in providing plant based options which in turn is an encouragement to meat eaters to 'dabble'. And the more they dabble in healthy eating, the greater the benefits to their health which in turn is an example to the meat eaters around them. Snowball effect commences.

Interestingly, that snowball effect is even making inroads in hospitals. The most recent 'convert' is Midlands Memorial Hospital in Texas (the heart of beef country) which is now making a vegan diet the first offering and including courses to teach staff and patients how to cook exclusively with plants.

I belong to a plant based FB group and every day, I'm reading testimonials from people. One that stands out was a woman who was suffering from fatty liver disease and obesity. A year ago, her husband was diagnosed with MS and was facing a $60,000/year future expenditure for his required medications.

They decided to go plant based instead. No meat, no dairy, no eggs and cut back on oil as much as possible. One year later, she'd lost 130 pounds, no longer had fatty liver disease and her husband never did have to buy any of those meds and his doctor had given him the all clear because he no longer displayed any MS symptoms.

Animal product consumption results in the commencement of an inflammatory response within about 2 hours of eating it. The habit of 'animal' at breakfast, then at lunch, then for dinner means that the body is in an inflamed situation most of the time. As we all know, inflammation is a precursor to many diseases. So why would you promote this when there are so many other options? Habit, tradition? Are those good enough reasons to take and use the life and joy of animals, considering that it's detrimental to everything and everyone? In this day and age, animal consumption and use is completely indefensible. We know better now, and yet it persists. Habit, tradition.....

[Altair]

I see the example I gave falls on deaf ears because you are ideologically against the taking of infertile eggs..
I simply disagree with your view..

I would say that the sensible line should be drawn at slaughter, not at using animals. Without 'using' bees we will be in trouble. Without the horse or the dog human civilization would have looked very differently. Provided we don't slaughter and abuse the animal, but use them for whatever purpose (and there are many) it can be defensible. You want every farming community to start using high tech or should there be, in some regions where people prefer it, cows or buffalo used as beasts of burden?

What you are missing is that many of the animals we use have co-evolved with us. Sled dogs don't mind being 'used' provided they are not burdened. Some horses want to go out with their rider. Cows will produce milk whether their calf is grown up or not. Sheep will have wool available. Chickens will lay eggs whether you take them or not.

Does this mean these animals are treated well? No, usually not. But it doesn't mean that such is the only way.. (as I showed with chicken eggs..)

Provided there is no slaughter and we take care of the animal there is just no strong moral argument to not make the best of it..

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

I see the example I gave falls on deaf ears because you are ideologically against the taking of infertile eggs..
I simply disagree with your view..

I would say that the sensible line should be drawn at slaughter, not at using animals. Without 'using' bees we will be in trouble. Without the horse or the dog human civilization would have looked very differently. Provided we don't slaughter and abuse the animal, but use them for whatever purpose (and there are many) it can be defensible. You want every farming community to start using high tech or should there be, in some regions where people prefer it, cows or buffalo used as beasts of burden?

What you are missing is that many of the animals we use have co-evolved with us. Sled dogs don't mind being 'used' provided they are not burdened. Some horses want to go out with their rider. Cows will produce milk whether their calf is grown up or not. Sheep will have wool available. Chickens will lay eggs whether you take them or not.

Does this mean these animals are treated well? No, usually not. But it doesn't mean that such is the only way.. (as I showed with chicken eggs..)

Provided there is no slaughter and we take care of the animal there is just no strong moral argument to not make the best of it..

Yes, ideologically against USING animals for our purposes. They have lives that are their own and just as I wouldn't want to be used by anyone, I and other vegans offer them the same respect. While we use bees by taking their honey, letting them do their own bee-thing which results in plant pollination is not the same thing (until we get into the issues of honey and the related bee-culture issues). If we take care of the environment by not polluting or spraying pesticides etc., then bees operate very nicely without us and we can benefit from their activities.

As to the sled dogs and horses and all the other animals, I suggest that you are making those determinations that they don't mind being used, based on your desire to use them. Horses do mind being used, which is why it's necessary to teach them to TOLERATE a human on their back. Once we've desensitized them (turned off their prey animal fears), then we can make them do other things that only benefit us. And equally, dogs must be taught to pull sleds and do what they're told but without us interfering in their lives and choices, they'd be very comfortable just doing their doggy-thing. It can also be noted that within that 'sport' there are horrible abuses as well that are carefully kept hidden from the general public. Same goes for greyhound racing and horse racing.

While Australia is still caught in the throes of a struggle to end live transport, Canberra has recently recognized the horror of greyhound training/racing and has recently banned that activity. Much as Catalonia, Spain did ban bull fighting, only to have their federal government 'ban their ban' by the recent political activity to stop the separation of that part of Spain from the country.

Cows ONLY produce milk because 1. we've bred animals that produce more than any calf needs and 2. they would/should be feeding only their calves. And the same goes for chickens who've been selectively bred until they produce an egg a day. By any standards that is an anomaly as there is no bird in the natural world that lays eggs every day. One or two clutches in a season, raise the babies, and the species continues. That is how it is supposed to be.

And the same can be said of the various sheep breeds. Selectively bred to produce the most wool or meat. For example, the merino sheep which is the most common breed in Australia has been bred to have a loose, wrinkly skin. This provides more square inches of skin to grow more wool fibres. The result is an animal that is particularly susceptible to fly strike. The solution to that is to cut off hand sized slices of their skin so that the scarred tissue that grows back doesn't have wool and thus is less susceptible to fly strike. That 'surgery' is done with a pair of shears and NO ANESTHETIC. By the way I mentioned Australia because they are the worlds #1 producer of wool which is a tragedy in itself due to the temperatures of that country and the kind of fibre that sheep grow. Can you imagine the discomfort levels prior to the brutal shearing season? And not only that, but those sheep end their lives either on filthy transport ships going to the ME or they survive that and wind up enduring the not tender and not merciful handling of meat consumers in the ME.

It seems to me that from all perspectives, humans using animals is literally, a dead-end.

[Altair]

It's a nature fallacy when honey is justified but eggs and milk are not. You seem to be under the impression that chickens and cows are performing unnatural behaviours because they have been used and bred by humans for specific purposes. They do however perform totally natural behaviours.. we have just changed them. We do the same with all the other domesticated animals..

You are using the bees and the product they make.. They continue their work because you want them too..
What we should ask is whether the use of this or that animal leads to slaughter and inflicting pain, and whether it is or isn't environmentally sound..

And equally, dogs must be taught to pull sleds and do what they're told but without us interfering in their lives and choices, they'd be very comfortable just doing their doggy-thing

But they're an active breed capable of such work. Could be a sled, could be something else. Different breeds.. different doggy needs.
Are we only to passively observe animals.. and pretend we have no relationship with them?

By any standards that is an anomaly as there is no bird in the natural world that lays eggs every day.

What is the big deal anyway? We are the only ones that communicate through the internet. We build cars and space ships. We write and we talk.
Tigers have unique stripes. Chameleons change colour. Are they all anomalies?

But again the nature argument. We are unique.. we change the world, ourselves, and even other species..
Nature is not the guideline as to how we should behave. We write that guideline ourselves.. based on human wisdom, or spiritual wisdom.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

It's a nature fallacy when honey is justified but eggs and milk are not. You seem to be under the impression that chickens and cows are performing unnatural behaviours because they have been used and bred by humans for specific purposes. They do however perform totally natural behaviours.. we have just changed them. We do the same with all the other domesticated animals..

You are using the bees and the product they make.. They continue their work because you want them too..
What we should ask is whether the use of this or that animal leads to slaughter and inflicting pain, and whether it is or isn't environmentally sound..

But they're an active breed capable of such work. Could be a sled, could be something else. Different breeds.. different doggy needs.
Are we only to passively observe animals.. and pretend we have no relationship with them?

What is the big deal anyway? We are the only ones that communicate through the internet. We build cars and space ships. We write and we talk.
Tigers have unique stripes. Chameleons change colour. Are they all anomalies?

But again the nature argument. We are unique.. we change the world, ourselves, and even other species..
Nature is not the guideline as to how we should behave. We write that guideline ourselves.. based on human wisdom, or spiritual wisdom.

***************
I was reading a study this morning about the development of oviduct cancers in hens from the constant daily 'menses' that she was force to live with. Natural birds don't do that. And the article mentioned a great deal of them develop ovarian cancers and it muses on the potential connect between human ovarian cancer and what those poor birds get.

Bees continue their work because they are bees. And if we quit using their honey, they would still continue their real work which is to pollinate plates (and that's the only benefit we should involve ourselves with).

Dogs are our companions, period. Sometimes they can help us but in their case, with the right dog, they truly do want to be there for you. For others, not so much. But other than the KINDEST involvement with them service wise, we should live with them as our friends. Same with cats (because my cat is fabulous and deserves only love). And if a dog loves running, then the guardian has a responsibility to make their lie good and full (just like if we have kids) and take him where he can safely run, or whatever his joy.

Don't PRETEND you have a relationship or connection with animals! RECOGNIZE that all humanity HAS a connection with them. They are truly part of us and part of our world. From a scientific and quantum science perspective, they are the same as us, they are part of us and they are here for THEIR purposes, not ours.

And nature absolutely is the last word on how we should be. If you look at the physiology of humans, from jaws to teeth to digestive acids, to guts and what makes guts healthy, it's plants. That humans learned to eat meat is a detour from what is good for these bodies.

And nature tells us how to get along with each other too. All you have to do is watch a room full of young children of mixed races playing together. They have to be taught to hate, to be unkind.....We are part of nature no less than every last animal, including the ones that we've created, are part of nature. You can't dismiss nature to understand how you should eat and relate to animals.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

It's a nature fallacy when honey is justified but eggs and milk are not. You seem to be under the impression that chickens and cows are performing unnatural behaviours because they have been used and bred by humans for specific purposes. They do however perform totally natural behaviours.. we have just changed them. We do the same with all the other domesticated animals..

You are using the bees and the product they make.. They continue their work because you want them too..
What we should ask is whether the use of this or that animal leads to slaughter and inflicting pain, and whether it is or isn't environmentally sound..

But they're an active breed capable of such work. Could be a sled, could be something else. Different breeds.. different doggy needs.
Are we only to passively observe animals.. and pretend we have no relationship with them?

What is the big deal anyway? We are the only ones that communicate through the internet. We build cars and space ships. We write and we talk.
Tigers have unique stripes. Chameleons change colour. Are they all anomalies?

But again the nature argument. We are unique.. we change the world, ourselves, and even other species..
Nature is not the guideline as to how we should behave. We write that guideline ourselves.. based on human wisdom, or spiritual wisdom.

***************
I was reading a study this morning about the development of oviduct cancers in hens from the constant daily 'menses' that she was force to live with. Natural birds don't do that. And the article mentioned a great deal of them develop ovarian cancers and it muses on the potential connect between human ovarian cancer and what those poor birds get.

Bees continue their work because they are bees. And if we quit using their honey, they would still continue their real work which is to pollinate plates (and that's the only benefit we should involve ourselves with).

Dogs are our companions, period. Sometimes they can help us but in their case, with the right dog, they truly do want to be there for you. For others, not so much. But other than the KINDEST involvement with them service wise, we should live with them as our friends. Same with cats (because my cat is fabulous and deserves only love). And if a dog loves running, then the guardian has a responsibility to make their lie good and full (just like if we have kids) and take him where he can safely run, or whatever his joy.

Don't PRETEND you have a relationship or connection with animals! RECOGNIZE that all humanity HAS a connection with them. They are truly part of us and part of our world. From a scientific and quantum science perspective, they are the same as us, they are part of us and they are here for THEIR purposes, not ours.

And nature absolutely is the last word on how we should be. If you look at the physiology of humans, from jaws to teeth to digestive acids, to guts and what makes guts healthy, it's plants. That humans learned to eat meat is a detour from what is good for these bodies.

And nature tells us how to get along with each other too. All you have to do is watch a room full of young children of mixed races playing together. They have to be taught to hate, to be unkind.....We are part of nature no less than every last animal, including the ones that we've created, are part of nature. You can't dismiss nature to understand how you should eat and relate to animals.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

It's a nature fallacy when honey is justified but eggs and milk are not. You seem to be under the impression that chickens and cows are performing unnatural behaviours because they have been used and bred by humans for specific purposes. They do however perform totally natural behaviours.. we have just changed them. We do the same with all the other domesticated animals..

You are using the bees and the product they make.. They continue their work because you want them too..
What we should ask is whether the use of this or that animal leads to slaughter and inflicting pain, and whether it is or isn't environmentally sound..

But they're an active breed capable of such work. Could be a sled, could be something else. Different breeds.. different doggy needs.
Are we only to passively observe animals.. and pretend we have no relationship with them?

What is the big deal anyway? We are the only ones that communicate through the internet. We build cars and space ships. We write and we talk.
Tigers have unique stripes. Chameleons change colour. Are they all anomalies?

But again the nature argument. We are unique.. we change the world, ourselves, and even other species..
Nature is not the guideline as to how we should behave. We write that guideline ourselves.. based on human wisdom, or spiritual wisdom.

***************
I was reading a study this morning about the development of oviduct cancers in hens from the constant daily 'menses' that she was force to live with. Natural birds don't do that. And the article mentioned a great deal of them develop ovarian cancers and it muses on the potential connect between human ovarian cancer and what those poor birds get.

Bees continue their work because they are bees. And if we quit using their honey, they would still continue their real work which is to pollinate plates (and that's the only benefit we should involve ourselves with).

Dogs are our companions, period. Sometimes they can help us but in their case, with the right dog, they truly do want to be there for you. For others, not so much. But other than the KINDEST involvement with them service wise, we should live with them as our friends. Same with cats (because my cat is fabulous and deserves only love). And if a dog loves running, then the guardian has a responsibility to make their lie good and full (just like if we have kids) and take him where he can safely run, or whatever his joy.

Don't PRETEND you have a relationship or connection with animals! RECOGNIZE that all humanity HAS a connection with them. They are truly part of us and part of our world. From a scientific and quantum science perspective, they are the same as us, they are part of us and they are here for THEIR purposes, not ours.

And nature absolutely is the last word on how we should be. If you look at the physiology of humans, from jaws to teeth to digestive acids, to guts and what makes guts healthy, it's plants. That humans learned to eat meat is a detour from what is good for these bodies.

And nature tells us how to get along with each other too. All you have to do is watch a room full of young children of mixed races playing together. They have to be taught to hate, to be unkind.....We are part of nature no less than every last animal, including the ones that we've created, are part of nature. You can't dismiss nature to understand how you should eat and relate to animals.