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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Meditation

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  #41  
Old 20-11-2014, 05:34 PM
sunsoul sunsoul is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
I understand that people do not have a grounding in the subleties of this observe breath technique. When their students quickly lose focus they aim to remedy that, but they do not address the underlying nature of distraction, so their students do not gain insight into it through their practice. Since I have practiced breath meditation extensively, I have come to observe very subtle nuances that pertain this kind of meditation.

I would go further and articulate the nuances in some detail, but there is no point doing so in the absence of the practice itself, and if one is using some nature of volitionally invoked mental dialogue, they wont come to the insight of which I speak.

You have to remember that this is meditation practice as taught by masters over 2000 years.. Your logic comes across as illogical in that sense. Are you really going to tell us that the zen style staring at wall technique is habit forming, too??

I know vipassana doesn't use mindful counting or staring at the wall but that doesn't mean that these techniques can't be useful for many. It depends on the individual as well as to what technique works best.

You are fully focused on the breath in any case. The count comes at the beginning or end of the breath (the in-between breath). It is simply a way to help settle the mind. For beginners, they often get lost in thought and you realise quicker that you have forgotten your count.. The third stage is simply breath awareness as used in vipassana, anyway.
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  #42  
Old 21-11-2014, 09:10 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by sunsoul
You have to remember that this is meditation practice as taught by masters over 2000 years..

Pure breath technique is probably much older than that.

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Your logic comes across as illogical in that sense. Are you really going to tell us that the zen style staring at wall technique is habit forming, too??

The tecnique isn't habit forming per se,

It's not a habit forming technique because one doesn't practice doing anything. On the contrary, as one does nothing, the habitual thought patterns (that distract persons) become very plain and obvious. The technique has an aim of discontinuing that habitual distraction.

Quote:
I know vipassana doesn't use mindful counting or staring at the wall but that doesn't mean that these techniques can't be useful for many. It depends on the individual as well as to what technique works best.

If people want to practice with some nature of mental dialogue, that's fine, it'll assist in focusing the mind, but the method isn't only about focusing the mind, and employing a dialogue detracts from other purposes.

Quote:
You are fully focused on the breath in any case. The count comes at the beginning or end of the breath (the in-between breath). It is simply a way to help settle the mind. For beginners, they often get lost in thought and you realise quicker that you have forgotten your count.. The third stage is simply breath awareness as used in vipassana, anyway.

If you insist on the counting then fine, no harm there and there's benefit to it. The benefit of helping to focus the mind. As I said several times, this kind of breath meditation is not just for mental focus.

I'll summarise the pertinent points below:

1) The method is an observation technique, which means it is non-volitional. Employing a volitionally incurred mental dialogue contradicts that at the most fundamental level.

2) The meditator soon realises that they are very easily distracted and unable to retain focus even for a minute. These distractions are habitual incessant ramblings that become vividly apparent as soon as the meditator stops doing. If one then employs a mental dialogue such as counting, the volitionally incurred dialogue detracts their attention from their ingrained mental habits... besides focus, the method is designed to bring insight into the habitual thought that distracts the mind, and counting breaths detract from that.

3) The most important part of the method is to be aware of the breath as it is actually experienced. The practice is supposed to hone the mind's perception so that it begins to notice finer and finer nuances of the breath as it is being experienced, so it attends to the sensation of the breath. If one counts, they are only distracting themselves from what the breath really does feel like, to them.

4) The person who is so easily distracted by their though habits soon begins to experience egoic reativity such as self disappointment, frustration, self defeat and other things. We don not want to alleviate their distraction because, besides focus, the method aims to bring the meditator's awareness to the mental reactivity that causes their daily misery.

It's is for focus and insight.

I know these points are difficult, if not impossible, to understand in the absence of the practice, and I'm entering futility explaining it out the practice context, but I hope you see the sense in what I'm attempting to articulate.
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  #43  
Old 21-11-2014, 04:06 PM
sunsoul sunsoul is offline
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I think you are sensing what is the truth. You are talking from an experienced meditator's point of view not from a beginner's point of view. The beginner needs fundamentals and help as necessary. The techniques discussed are designed to help, and they have been proven to help.

I will also say this once more - I think your volition forming idea holds no real credence. Whether you are observing breath directly, using a count or staring at the wall you are doing the same thing i.e. focusing your mind and letting the distractions fall away.

The distractions will distract whatever method you use. Teachers have used the counting method simply because you can focus easier. There is nothing unnatural about it. This is a preliminary stage to breath awareness, so not an ingrained method that is never dispensed with!

We understand that you don't like the counting method or the staring at the wall method. This probably means that you disagreeing with millions of Buddhist practitioners and teachers. It is one thing to say that you don't use something, but another to say that technique x is useless or without worth.

You are not the only one practising, Gem!
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  #44  
Old 22-11-2014, 02:49 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsoul
I think you are sensing what is the truth. You are talking from an experienced meditator's point of view not from a beginner's point of view. The beginner needs fundamentals and help as necessary. The techniques discussed are designed to help, and they have been proven to help.

Yes counting can help with focus, but it doesn't address the nature of distraction.

I will also say this once more - I think your volition forming idea holds no real credence. Whether you are observing breath directly, using a count or staring at the wall you are doing the same thing i.e. focusing your mind and letting the distractions fall away.[/quote]

Non-volition is the essential fundamental of this kind of technique. That's what defines it.

If observing the breath or looking at a point on a wall, you don't volitionally generate anything. That's 'as it is'. Counting is a volitional act so you observe 'that of your own making'. Therein lies the difference.

Quote:
The distractions will distract whatever method you use. Teachers have used the counting method simply because you can focus easier. There is nothing unnatural about it. This is a preliminary stage to breath awareness, so not an ingrained method that is never dispensed with!

We understand that you don't like the counting method or the staring at the wall method. This probably means that you disagreeing with millions of Buddhist practitioners and teachers. It is one thing to say that you don't use something, but another to say that technique x is useless or without worth.

You are not the only one practising, Gem!

I have nothing against the wall method, or staring at a flame, or listening to the inner ear method . The point is that any observation method is essentially non-volitional.

I said several times that the counting method is beneficial as it helps with focus and never even implied it's worthlessness.

I know a lot of instructors say to count the breaths to alleviate the distractions that their students experience. That's because they are concerned with focus and don't really understand the deeper implications of this practice. I think I was pretty systematic in outlining those implications.
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  #45  
Old 22-11-2014, 04:25 AM
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I think - and have experienced the bringing attention back to one's breathing, is easy way to solve the problem of wandering thoughts, and for me, anyway it is the lowest common denominator, and once I learned to do this, I felt true success in mindfulness and meditating. Just my 2 pennies.
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  #46  
Old 22-11-2014, 04:41 AM
sunsoul sunsoul is offline
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Yes, it is the main point. Once you bring back your attention to breath then deeper states possible... Like an anchor dropped in a stormy sea..
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  #47  
Old 22-11-2014, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Silver
I think - and have experienced the bringing attention back to one's breathing, is easy way to solve the problem of wandering thoughts, and for me, anyway it is the lowest common denominator, and once I learned to do this, I felt true success in mindfulness and meditating. Just my 2 pennies.

Ineresting... I think that the breath focus helps to bring about an awareness of how the mind wanders off to various obsessions and habitual internal chattering, and it's not a matter of fighting them or avoiding them; it's a matter of noticing them as they occur, and discontinuing them.

The discontinuing of them is a bit of a process, so the practice sets up a silent background against which any mindful activity becomes vividly apparent, and one observes that they have wandered off in contrast to their meditation. That means the meditation and the distraction are simultaneously recognised, and the distinction between them is very clear, so the mind acknowledges that the distraction is observed, and the breath is observed, and how they (I) mentally generate the distraction, and the breath is ... just is.
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  #48  
Old 22-11-2014, 04:47 AM
Silver Silver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsoul
Yes, it is the main point. Once you bring back your attention to breath then deeper states possible... Like an anchor dropped in a stormy sea..

I like that, I really like that mind-picture.
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  #49  
Old 22-11-2014, 04:52 AM
Silver Silver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Ineresting... I think that the breath focus helps to bring about an awareness of how the mind wanders off to various obsessions and habitual internal chattering, and it's not a matter of fighting them or avoiding them; it's a matter of noticing them as they occur, and discontinuing them.

The discontinuing of them is a bit of a process, so the practice sets up a silent background against which any mindful activity becomes vividly apparent, and one observes 'now I have wandered off again' in contrast to their meditation. That means the meditation and the distraction are simultaneously recognised, and the distinction between them is very clear, so the mind acknowledges that the distraction is observed, and the breath is observed, and how they (I) mentally generate the distraction, and the breath is ... just is.

Yes ... so many beginners get overly frustrated and haven't yet stumbled on this simple smooth process of drawing attention gently back to focal point of the breath -- and they all too often punish themselves for their 'failure' when their thoughts constantly interrupt their meditation. Meditation and mindfulness is supposed to help you disperse emotions, among other things. I'm still a beginner because I don't 'sit' and meditate, I just do it during normal everyday stuff.
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  #50  
Old 22-11-2014, 05:22 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Silver
Yes ... so many beginners get overly frustrated and haven't yet stumbled on this simple smooth process of drawing attention gently back to focal point of the breath -- and they all too often punish themselves for their 'failure' when their thoughts constantly interrupt their meditation. Meditation and mindfulness is supposed to help you disperse emotions, among other things. I'm still a beginner because I don't 'sit' and meditate, I just do it during normal everyday stuff.

That's true, and it really gets to the point of it. First the meditator notices that they are so easily swept away in thoughts. Not even 30 seconds later and they're gone. Usually, very soon after they realise how disrteacted they really are, they become frustrated, disappointed and down on themselves... That's what this kind of technique is designed to expose... and it's a very pertinent insight to make.
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