Science and Spirituality successfully meet: the work of physicist Tom Campbell

[Pleroma]

Its nothing new Plato said about it long ago. Big Bang and Evolution by Natural Selection is pure illusion.

Originally Posted by Aerin328

Agreed that of course there is a ton of evidence that this is the case based on voluminous scientific work over the last few hundred years, but be careful that such a conclusion doesn't just become a belief based on that information (making the mistake of thinking there's nothing greater). Indeed, there is information "out there" (not just in this reality frame) that would very probably impact your perception about this topic. Unfortunately, having a belief in ANY aspect of "what must be" (for instance believing that a TOE must be mathematical like Newton's laws) can limit your willingness to search where you need to find a more accurate paradigm.



A TOE indeed has to account for ALL other results in physics, and it must include and explain ALL of the math, but it is not true that "only with math" can that be done. That sounds nuts if you have seen that math can explain so much here, but math is not the ultimate explainer of all phenomena in all existence. The reason is, the rule-set of our reality here (which contains all math, all physical interactions, all experimentation ever done that we can look up on Google) is a sub-set of another reality which has laid down that rule-set itself. Math allows us to speak extremely effectively about aspects of our rule-set in this reality and predict vast amounts of physical interaction, but it is a false assumption to believe that math itself can conclude the "why" of all things (including the origin of the math or those specific equations themselves ;) ). For instance, if acceleration due to gravity is at a rate of 9.8 meters / second squared, why is that? "It's just the way it is and it always works" is not an answer- a TOE must derive why that equation is used.

Note that a World of Warcraft Elf character may discover and utilize the math of his world to great success, but he is incapable (while constrained as an Elf) to speak to the dimension that generates his including the game server, the reason for the server, or the weather outside the PC player's house and the danger that lightning could fry the components. :) (just a fun example) Metaphorically, you and I are in the World of Warcraft right now- and because you've only ever seen pixel rain fall down from 90 degrees above at a named rate (metaphor), you are convinced that the source of all of the World of Warcraft must be another World of Warcraft physics equation. That's a reasonable mistake- after all, how could the Elf know anything about Blizzard Entertainment and the temperature of its server room? :)

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. Einstein

Originally Posted by Fairyana

I'm a big fan of Tom Campbell. I watched his lectures and started reading his book but didn't finish it cause I got side tracked by other books that took my attention. lol. I gotta get back to it though.

I still have some problem visualizing what he means... For instance, I don't know where to add the Big Bang in his model.

An internet friend told me about Spiritual Forums some weeks ago. I dropped by and found this science and spirituality section and first heard about Tom Campbell. I looked into his book and decided to buy the complete trilogy. It came last Wednesday and I read the first book in about three days. I usually underline a book I know I want to keep and go back to, but didn't take the time to do so until about pg 150, I was in a hurry to get to the good stuff. If it were not for his recommendation to read the whole thing before making an evaluation I probably couldn't have gotten any further. The biographical part was OK but the next stuff I had to mostly just trudge through as being unnecessarily detailed, and I'm not a fan of his sense of humor. I had to start skimming the personal asides (some pointless humor [humorless] cr*p).

Finally, yesterday, about page 300, it started getting interesting. I was going to wait until I read the whole thing to comment here, but this seemed a good place. ........I understand about a new book getting in the way of finishing something.....

sdp

SDP,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I was in a similar position at the start. I picked up the book and saw the huge size, opened to the Preface and thought to myself, "man do I have to read the preface?" and the first sentence of the Preface was "Yes you need to read the Preface." ;) I agree that Campbell's book is somewhat verbose. Importantly, he knows he is speaking to members of a "quick fix" culture, where pursuing and understanding "Big Truth" is not a "quick fix" activity. Also I think he takes a long time to say what he wishes to say because he knows he has to work with many existing paradigms of understanding, so he takes a good while leading the reader through seeing past his own paradigms. The book continues to have many asides and the majority of the book is establishing certain "framework ideas" so that the reader can see the plausibility of the general model. Even in 1000 pages, Campbell does not get into the detail of the physics- if you are interested in that, I would recommend as an example the first couple hours of the video link I posted at the top of this thread. Anyway, I'd offer general encouragement about the length of the book. It took me 1.5 years to read carefully, but it was very much worth it for me specifically, and I intend to go through it again, as I feel like my own experience in meditation (Chapter 23) has given all the content of the book new meaning. However that definitely doesn't mean this book is for everyone- a certain intellectual tenacity and desire to shake up one's own paradigm is required. :)
Again, thanks for sharing! :)

[Morpheus]

How about this...
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistant one."?

Or...

"Time and space are modes in which we think,and not conditions in which we live."
-Einstein.
Some 70+ years ago.

Originally Posted by redeyessoul

That's simply referring to the phenomenon where in the observer cannot overcome the limitations of their physical being. Even devices still feed information back through the same senses. So there is that :)

That right Redeye? So... Einsteins statements don't tie in with other, about the Holgraphic Universe.
Understanding about Hyperspace, and infinity?

Right. If you say so.


Another case of isolationist thinking. For your own reasons.

Originally Posted by Aerin328

SDP,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I was in a similar position at the start. I picked up the book and saw the huge size, opened to the Preface and thought to myself, "man do I have to read the preface?" and the first sentence of the Preface was "Yes you need to read the Preface." ;) I agree that Campbell's book is somewhat verbose. Importantly, he knows he is speaking to members of a "quick fix" culture, where pursuing and understanding "Big Truth" is not a "quick fix" activity. Also I think he takes a long time to say what he wishes to say because he knows he has to work with many existing paradigms of understanding, so he takes a good while leading the reader through seeing past his own paradigms. The book continues to have many asides and the majority of the book is establishing certain "framework ideas" so that the reader can see the plausibility of the general model. Even in 1000 pages, Campbell does not get into the detail of the physics- if you are interested in that, I would recommend as an example the first couple hours of the video link I posted at the top of this thread. Anyway, I'd offer general encouragement about the length of the book. It took me 1.5 years to read carefully, but it was very much worth it for me specifically, and I intend to go through it again, as I feel like my own experience in meditation (Chapter 23) has given all the content of the book new meaning. However that definitely doesn't mean this book is for everyone- a certain intellectual tenacity and desire to shake up one's own paradigm is required. :)
Again, thanks for sharing! :)

Hey Aerin328, I was mostly trying to encourage Fairyana. What sold me on Campbell, sold the book, was his mention of entropy, that the evolution of consciousness is tied to lowering entropy. Reading the book he has made this point numerous times.

I'm up to page 363 so far. I'm getting through it fairly quickly because it pretty-much corresponds to my previous metaphysical paradigm, essentially the Great Chain of Being, roughly also the Kabbalistic Tree of Life universe. I can buy his only two starting requirements, consciousness and evolution. What he hasn't yet made the case, for me, is why consciousness starts out as dim consciousness.

sdp

[hybrid]

Since this universe is "virtual" (in that it is derived from a "higher" generating non-physical material reality or NPMR), it doesn't exist as a fundamental thing, but instead exists as an experience rendered to all conscious participants (kind of like the Matrix :) ).

that the evolution of consciousness is tied to lowering entropy.

so between npmr and the universe, where is consciousness in the natural order of things?

Originally Posted by hybrid

so between npmr and the universe, where is consciousness in the natural order of things?

Consciousness *is* the natural order of things. Both NPMR (non-physical material realities) and PMR (physical material realities) are data-exchanges within consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental; defined reality systems are "virtual" (not fundamental). Certain reality systems give rise to others- our own "NPMRn" "generates" our PMR just as, metaphorically, our computers "generate" crude virtual realities in a computer. Except in this case, the most fundamental "computer" is God's consciousness, of which we ourselves are an integral inseperable part. The entire system is extremely vast but conscious awareness is the fundamental thing that exists.

Just to be clear, Tom Campbell assumes two axioms. Originally, consciousness exists (defined as dim consciousness, IOW, not an omniscient God), and evolution. Dim consciousness evolves into higher and more complex forms of consciousness.

Campbell says everything else can be derived from accepting these two premises.

I'll have to finish the book before giving up on originating SOI (Supreme Ordering Intelligence :-).

sdp

[Morpheus]

-Pilgrim, however, Evolution takes place in something which is called illusory today. "Space/Time".

Regarding the many NDE accounts available today, I would hardly call what is original, "Light" and, "source", "Dim".

God is Truth.
"In Whom we live, and move, and have our being."

On the contrary, it is we in this "meat suit" and organic form, within illusory "Space/Time"... which is limited, and constrained.