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Old 27-05-2017, 04:12 PM
Bohdiyana Bohdiyana is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 276
Originally Posted by markings
The Buddha was dissatisfied with the outcome he got through the teachers he visited and worked with.
He resolved that there must be a better way and set out to discover it.
How is that not having a goal?

A goal can be something you know and seek. (Known conceptually as an idea.) Or a goal can be about changing now through self awareness.
So see one is based on the actual, observing or seeing what I am now, and one is based on a concept, seeking something I know as an idea.

There a big difference between a goal of knowing yourself, and one of seeking a concept of something you know, like enlightenment or whatever. Some idea separate from you.

One type of goal will never result in a fundamental change in what a person is, though they may superficially act and feel different, and the other has the potential to change what the person fundamentally is, as a thought centered consciousness. What they are as far as what reacts, what is referred to and experienced as reality and self etc. What they are as experience and experiencer. From what base or ground does action/reaction spring in them.

Buddha did not have an external conceptual goal. He did not think, ok these religious paths are not making me happy all the time so I will sit under this Bodhi tree until I am happy. He was aware he was still mentally suffering and so realized the religious paths were not helping him to be free of suffering. He was determined to find the root of the problem, and he eventually realized the source of the suffering was himself. It was something he had to realize or see in the actual, in himself, no outside concept would have solved the problem. The answer or solution was never outside him or his "doing." No practice, no teaching, no teacher, no religion, could stop the self caused suffering because he was the cause or "doer", nothing external. He was the only solution as he was the only cause. Once he realized himself as the primary cause, that seeing opened up a new way to be and thus a new experience of whatever was or is. Nothing he could do, (external goal) could have changed his perception of himself. He has to see or become aware of something he was not seeing or was not aware of. His enlightenment was not a result of anything he was doing, it was a result of him realizing or seeing in the actual what he was doing, it was a result of a change in what he was aware of.

Buddha did not have an external goal. External goals are conceptual. Buddha's goal was to know himself, it was based on the actual, not on an idea. One funny thing about external goals is how they are approached. Like say somebody has an external goal of reaching enlightenment. How many hours do you think the average person seeking enlightenment spends thinking about it in a given day or week? Maybe they go to a message board and post about it for a few hours, then they go to a party and forget about it. They go to the movies, later they go to work and think about other things. They spend time thinking about what new color to paint their walls. They argue with somebody about something. They get annoyed about what somebody says to them. That's the usual importance of external goals.

Buddha's goal was internal or actual and not external or conceptual. He never stopped being aware of what he was moment to moment. He never stopped being aware of the goal which was based on the actual and not an idea. Knowing who and what he was. In fact, it has to be constant eventually as it is a change in ones self awareness. You can't reach higher states of awareness then go back to being ignorant of what you know. You may forgetfully fall back into old habits and ways of being, but you will always have the knowledge based on real experience of what you are and so those insights guide you back in their good time to the realizations. What you are is applied 100% in everything you do. If ones goal is internal and experience based, it never stops. If one's goal is to become something, so is external and thought based, one can do it when they feel like it. It's just something they think about so it comes and goes as an idea. Now I am meditating, now I am gossiping on Facebook. Is the goal about what I am or about what I want to become? One is internal and one is external. One comes out of what I am and one comes out of what I think.

Last edited by Bohdiyana : 27-05-2017 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 27-05-2017, 04:59 PM
Bohdiyana Bohdiyana is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 276
Originally Posted by markings
Even though the Two Truth Theory is no mystery it seems impossible to arouse any interest in it. The reason you may guess. I have my own thoughts.

Maybe it's we are all egos interacting with each other, though some have had little glimpses into who or what they really are. The main thing ego's want is to stay the primary object of the attention, which of course limits awareness. An ego does not want to cease to be. I think it is designed to distract and confuse. To stay as the center or main shiny object for consciousness to focus on. Look here! Yes here! You could say or hear or think the most profound thing in the world, but the listener or your attention will focus on the shiny object ego puts up there on the screen at the same time.

But then I think that is the entire point of this game called human life. Something is wanting us to be more aware. So the game is consciousness is wrapped up with a human mind, and consciousness experiences life through that mind, suffering and bad outcomes result, and so the "solution" has to be to break free of the human mind based experience which requires awareness of it or more awareness, higher awareness.

Another way to say it is consciousness can submit to the human body and it's animal mind, emotions, drives etc or it can exert more of it's nature and influence over the body and it's mind by "waking up" or taking charge. By being more aware.

In quantum physics, it was discovered an observer changes the behavior of the observed. Matter or energy behaves differently if one is observing it. In other words, we, consciousness, can make the world. To a higher or lesser degree, matter or energy submits to our influence.

I think the purpose in all of this is to give new and not highly developed "consciousnesses" some experience is exerting it's will over lesser energies. When one becomes aware one is not one's thoughts, thought changes. The awareness or observing of thought, changes thought. It's the quantum physics. An observer changes the observed. Our experience is largely determined by what we are aware of or observing in any given moment.

I think our destiny is to be eternal creators, not necessary of what exists, but to what that which exists becomes or is experienced as. Earth is a kindergarten for consciousness to begin to get a sense of our powers as creators. To get a feel for working with some dense lower forms of matter and energy. To see if we let these lower physical energies create our experience or we rise up and exert our influence over them through higher awareness.

We take it for granted but something as simple as picking up a pen and moving it on our desk just changed matter. We took atoms from one place and put them in another. Becoming aware of one's thoughts as an "outsider" changes the structure of ones entire being. We were placed in animal bodies for a reason. It's like here is a simple little living computer, designed to be driven by sex and greed and self interest and whatever, see if you can exert what and who you are over that. See how much you influence it or it influences you. Find yourself in that. Become aware of more, observe more, more is influenced by you. You start small like noticing you are leaving your dirty socks all over the house...then notice you are giving reality and truth to thoughts that have none in themselves.
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Old 27-05-2017, 06:35 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,525
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
He didn't have goals in that sense. He wanted to find something he didn't know, not something he did. He wanted to understand why people got sick and died. He wanted to know what the purpose of life was. At first, he looked through religion for the answers he didn't know. He continually looked to the actual, and not the imagined, his own experience. He observed himself, he was conscious of himself, his moods, and thoughts, and desires, conscious and aware of his physical and mental suffering. Eventually he gave up the very thing that had a "goal" because he realized it was what caused craving, desire, and self caused suffering. He gave up himself and found himself. So no he did not have a goal like you are suggesting. His "goal" was not external to him. If he had a goal in the way it is expressed here, as something external to a person, we would not have Buddhism because he would not have changed fundamentally in what he was.

If Buddha didn't have the goal of liberating all sentient beings through his teachings - Sutras - Buddhism... thats what I meant.

The ultimate spiritual goal of all Buddhist is to reach Nirvana.
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Old Yesterday, 06:22 AM
Ground Ground is offline
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 590
Originally Posted by markings
It is one factor why some people dismiss spirituality out of hand. It makes it sound like nonsense.

Even though the Two Truth Theory is no mystery it seems impossible to arouse any interest in it. ...
It is the two truths theory which is irrational nonsens because calling something 'truth' which ultimately isn't true is fooling oneself and others.
The reason for this foolishness can be found in buddhism itself because if they stopped calling 'truth' what ultimately isn't true they would have to stop proclaiming their 'four noble truths' and admit to themselves that their system is built on non-truths and thus isn't different from any other system of beliefs.
'Conventional truths' appear to be true to a concealer only and the concealer is ordinary consciousness.

Now buddists who affirm the view of the two truths are actually fooling themselves and others in a second mode beyond the first just mentioned because in the sphere of their conventional truths they grant their own buddhist truths a superior status in relation to other non-buddhist truths and thus they actually have a 'three truths' system while affirming only 'two truths'.

To overcome belief in this irrational two truths theory it is necessary only to find out why phenomena that aren't truly existing can cause effects that aren't truly existing either but make themselves felt as if being truly existing. Plain and simple.

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.
And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self?
The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.
Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty...
"The nose is empty...
"The tongue is empty...
"The body is empty...

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.
Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

Thus it is said that the world is empty."

SN 35.85

Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them

SN 22.95
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