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Old 09-05-2017, 06:16 PM
FellowTraveler FellowTraveler is offline
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Post Robert Monroe's deterministic universe, determinism. No free will?

I'm hoping there are some people, on this forum, who've read Robert Monroe's books. In his third book, Ultimate journey, he describes some encounters that make it all seem that our universe is deterministic and whatever you do, think or feel, nothing will change the course of events that are already laid down for you from the beginning. For all of us for that matter. Here are some key excerpts:
  • Chapter 9. The Hard Way. "... I felt a signal vibrating within me. I followed it and came upon a scene I remembered well. There was someone beside me—it felt like a brother. He seemed nervous. I was pointing at the figure of a man lying face down in the middle of a dusty road. He was a youngster, no more than eighteen. A battle was going on all around him. ... The eighteen-year-old, who wore a wide belt, was struggling to pull himself up. The problem was the spear which was holding him down. The spear had penetrated his back, gone all the way through his body and deep into the dirt of the road. ... I turned to the man beside me. He was in obvious pain. I asked him if he understood. He nodded, then turned and moved away, and disappeared. ..."
And another from the same 9th chapter:
  • "... Below me appeared a small building, with a hole in the side of it and wide steps leading down inside. I walked carefully down the steps because the signal was coming from inside. There lying on a cot was a man thrashing around wildly. Hanging on to his back were two children, about four or five years old, riding out the bucking and pitching. The man was sobbing in fear and desperately trying to pull the two little ones off his shoulders. I reached over and gently pulled the children away from him. He lay back in the cot whimpering in relief. I looked down at the children lying quietly, one cradled in each of my arms. They were not children but cats, pets I remembered well. Cats in an OB state! ..."
After those events, Monroe concludes (in the same 9th chapter):
  • "... So I was the one who was helping me. Also I was the young warrior dying in the dust—that was the only way it made sense. That meant, therefore, there were three versions of me at the same place at the same time! In the second event from years back, I had been the one screaming for help, trying to dislodge the little demons who wanted to ride me like a horse, who seemed to own me. And then a serious-looking man came down the steps and took them off me, held them in his arms, and suddenly disappeared. ... I had come to help when I screamed for it! This, I thought, was a little less complicated—there were only two of me present!"
Here's the cherry on the cake.
  • Chapter 14. The Sum and the Parts. "...
    (Monroe) Tell me, who was it that I talked with, who was so patient with me and knew the answers? Why are you laughing!
    (His I-There) Who knows you best of all?
    (Monroe) I . . . me? I was talking with myself? But what about the time factor?
    (His I-There) You were talking with yourself—who else knew you better?
    (Monroe) So that's why the meetings ended! I ran out of information. And as the INSPEC I knew better!
    (His I-There) That was so. The process served a valuable and necessary function at that stage in your growth.
    (Monroe) It did indeed. But I don't remember playing the INSPEC role.
    (His I-There) No. You have not done it yet.
    ...
    (Monroe) So I do complete my present life?
    (His I-There) Of course. Remember, when you return you will have to take on all those INSPEC meetings with yourself. Now, do you need anything else? ..."
By "yourself" doesn't mean one of his personalities but Monroe's personality itself, what he called I-Here.

All that tells us, or Monroe tells us, that everything is already predetermined, no free will. I'm not gonna delve into time-travel paradoxes here for the sake of brevity... maybe later in posts. Let's say Monroe decided not to answer those calls, ignore them and continue exploring at his own agency or maybe returning to his physical body. But that can't happen since in order for him to be where/when he is, he has to help himself, otherwise he can't exist in that particular scenario 'cause not helping himself would have realized a different timeline with different circumstances and different Robert Monroe. He's also destined to play the role of INSPEC, to help the past himself, exactly how it was played out before for him. And where is that Monroe in the past? Is it a different entity? etc... Well, I promised not to delve into the paradoxes... yet.
So what should we think about Monroe's experiences; should we take them or leave them? Thoughts, comments, suggestions.
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Old 09-05-2017, 06:32 PM
catsquotl catsquotl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowTraveler
So what should we think about Monroe's experiences; should we take them or leave them? Thoughts, comments, suggestions.

We should take them, but possibly refrain from trying to explain them or "shudder" take them as a base to make conclusions about what we are. We can say that in this timeline this happened, happens and will happen.

we can't conclude that there is or isn't a timeline where he didn't go back to help himself for instance although I "shudder" think he has, will.

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Old 09-05-2017, 07:13 PM
Seawolf Seawolf is offline
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Biology is a good way of understanding why we do the things we do. If we understood our body and mind more thoroughly, we'd be able predict our behavior in life with much higher accuracy. Ideas like determism threaten our sense of individuality and freedom, but maybe it's because we don't understand ourselves that well. If we did understand, maybe it wouldn't be a threat but rather a launching point for improving ourselves.
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:42 AM
Carnate Carnate is offline
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We do have free will; when making the choices that determine the events in our life. By this I mean, before we are born into the world, we decide on the life events and circumstances that will be of benefit to us. Working with our higher self, we set the stage for these events to take place; free will. When in our physical life, we are essentially playing out those choices we previously made; and learn from them in the manner that they were designed for.

The problem most people face when understanding this is that we're limited to perceiving the problem from within the linear/spiral timeline mind-frame rather than as the 'whole-time' that our higher self has awareness of.

In a way, this makes both free will and pre-determined events both true in relation to our life and experiences. However, when viewed from our physical perspective, it feels like we're forced to adhere to a series of events that we have no real control/authority over.
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:48 PM
Glacier Serenade Glacier Serenade is offline
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I'm so confused about free will beliefs. I don't think anyone will ever be certain whether or not it exists. We make choices freely it would seem, but do we actually have control over making the choices? Who knows!
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:51 PM
slowsnake slowsnake is offline
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[quote=Glacier Serenade]I'm so confused about free will beliefs. I don't think anyone will ever be certain whether or not it exists. We make choices freely it would seem, but do we actually have control over making the choices? Who knows! [

Hello,
So am I mate so you're not Robinson Crusoe!
Free will to me and only applied to me subjectively, is the choices I have as a member of society/humanity is based on what my "ego" wants.
I get to choose what food I eat unless I live in a country without food,then they give and I take!

Free will is being able to choose a particular type and model of motor vehicle I drive,that is free will!
Its very simple to understand,but it is only relevant to the here and now,and,it is the only thing that separates us humans from animals,its not just intuition and instinct,it's the ability to make positive choices,some choices affect others,some don't

Then again if I was locked in prison I still have free will but then I have to submit to someone else's will,or lose my privileges, but I still retain my free will,but,I cannot exercise it as a "right",I lost that right when I entered prison?

Free will to me just separates us from the instinctiveness of an animal,for instance I feed my cat every day twice,in between he catches mice or vermin, I did not produce the mouse,the cat chose that himself
and that is free will too,he could of left the mouse alone but didn't, I have watched him make choices!

Now whether or not I chose my parents or they may of chose me,well I don't know,God knows and its on a need to know basis,would it be an advantage knowing my life's plan?
I think it would be a big disadvantage,the same as knowing when,where and exactly how you are going to die,it may have an disaterous outcome.

But I do know when I leave my body whether consciously or NDE,its still me,my mind, travelling on these journeys,I know I am.
My will is limited there,like in a prison!

Kind Regards Billy.
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Old 19-05-2017, 04:35 PM
Morpheus Morpheus is offline
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What did Einstein say about "Space/Time".
What is then linear time?

What is, "The Matrix"?

Apart from time, all is a known.
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