Does there have to be any meaning or design to it all??

[QuantumKev]

Originally Posted by metal68

I think we are all searching but is it fruitless??

What if it all really has just come about by accident/fortune and there is no meaning or reason for it? That we really are just biological robots with this illusion that we are something more. We're here for 60 to 90 years (if we're lucky) and then gone for good? That it is almost a cruel joke that we are here at all in the first place. And of course there are no higher beings, spirit guides etc

I find it hard to believe there is no design (not sure about the designer) and that it's all happened by chance but the likes of Dawkins seem to argue their case persuasively. I haven't read his books, I suspect I would find it too depressing.

My gut feeling is we are all desperately searching for meanings and seeing faces in clouds etc when there is nothing there.

I can totally relate to the way you are/were feeling when you wrote this, and even after a lifetime of spiritual seeking, still vacillate between KNOWING that Spirit/God/Oneness is real and thinking exactly what you wrote - that none of that is real, that there is no God/Great Spirit, that none of this means anything, and we are just bags of flesh, here for a brief moment and then gone - no meaning, no purpose, just that. And as someone who has suffered from depression myself, I can say that it does add to that belief that "nothing matters, it's all **."

If I may, I would like to recommend a book that speaks to a new paradigm of thinking about the true nature of reality and posits that consciousness is primary, not matter, and that matter arises from it - not the other way around.

http://www.amazon.com/Biocentrism-Co.../dp/1935251740

This is something I can grab on to when I am in doubt, because as much as Dawkins and the other atheists and materialists like to think they can explain away everything via science, materialism and chaos theory, there is still not a fully complete definition and understanding of consciousness - where it really comes from, the nature of it, whether it has local or non-local properties. And if they try to say they have it figured out completely, they are lying, because many of the world's greatest neuroscientists and others are still working to figure out the enigma of consciousness.

Oh, and something else to look into to help re-kindle your wonder and belief in "strange" and extraordinary things - look into some stuff on quantum physics - entanglement, the dual slit experiment, non-locality, etc. Things happen at that level that break all the rules of current Newtonian science and open up a space where "impossible" things can - and do! - happen.

One last recommendation - have you seen the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know..?!" It's a great introduction to all of this - biocentrism, quantum physics, the primacy of consciousness - and gave me a lot of hope and spiritual "boost" when I was in depression and doubt and really needed it. It might just be a little "medicine" for your soul - if you watch with an open mind : )

Hang in there friend, and if all else fails, remember (or find out about) Pascal's Wager - if you believe in God and live you life as such, and there really isn't one, what will you have lost at the end of your life? What might you have gained? But if you live your life as if there is no God and truly believe that there isn't one, only to find out in the end that there really is a God and that belief was false, what would you have lost out on...? Something to ponder...

Many Blessings...

Qkev

[metal68]

https://youtu.be/p9tBE1ILP28


Im taking it this is the right one??

[QuantumKev]

Originally Posted by metal68

https://youtu.be/p9tBE1ILP28


Im taking it this is the right one??

I think so, but I can't access it, so I can't be sure. I know there is the actual movie, then either a supplemental one or extended version called "Down the Rabbit Hole," which it looks like that one is.

It's a feature length movie, so if it's at least 1 1/2 hours or so, that's probably it : )


Qkev

[metal68]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

You are basically imagining what would this planet be like if no humans were on it. Every living thing has a consciousness. There is a point of awareness and perception inside every living thing. So even if humans were not here, conscious energy would still be here. Also, since this conscious energy is interacting with physical forms and data, it is evolving. So what is, is evolving into higher forms. Now say there was nothing living on this planet and conscious energy did not exist. If that was true, the planet would not exist.

Did you know rainbows don't exist if no one is around to see them? Moisture and light created light waves enters the human eye and looks like a rainbow. If there were no animals with eyes to translate the light waves into colors etc, they would not be there. The light waves would be there but they need an eye or lense to receive the data and a translator of that wave/data and then a consciousness to perceive or "experience/see" it. Really all there is is tiny atomic particles. Energy and matter. For a planet to exist there has to be a living things to perceive the atoms etc as a planet. The perceiver is the creator and so the perception itself is a sign of the intent of the ultimate creator. Look around your room. That is all atoms. We know this because we have microscopes that can look up close. Buzzing moving energy particles of electrons etc. That's what's here. The fact this buzzing hive of particles looks like a table or chair or bed etc is because of us. We are turning the minute particles into objects.

See Ive read this, and some say this is a misinterpretation of the famous double slit experiment.

Its like saying nothing exists if you don't perceive it but the earth would not just vanish if all life was extinguished. It would still be there wouldn't it.

[wmsm]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

You are basically imagining what would this planet be like if no humans were on it. Every living thing has a consciousness. There is a point of awareness and perception inside every living thing. So even if humans were not here, conscious energy would still be here. Also, since this conscious energy is interacting with physical forms and data, it is evolving. So what is, is evolving into higher forms. Now say there was nothing living on this planet and conscious energy did not exist. If that was true, the planet would not exist.

Did you know rainbows don't exist if no one is around to see them? Moisture and light created light waves enters the human eye and looks like a rainbow. If there were no animals with eyes to translate the light waves into colors etc, they would not be there. The light waves would be there but they need an eye or lense to receive the data and a translator of that wave/data and then a consciousness to perceive or "experience/see" it. Really all there is is tiny atomic particles. Energy and matter. For a planet to exist there has to be a living things to perceive the atoms etc as a planet. The perceiver is the creator and so the perception itself is a sign of the intent of the ultimate creator. Look around your room. That is all atoms. We know this because we have microscopes that can look up close. Buzzing moving energy particles of electrons etc. That's what's here. The fact this buzzing hive of particles looks like a table or chair or bed etc is because of us. We are turning the minute particles into objects.

Conscious living would still be here, you imply an evaluated interpretation of what consciousness actually is, as if you know what consciousness is.

Yet an animal that precedes your own life is being evalued by your organic presence, just because you are present. You make statements that include its information with your own....yet by review and condition, if we did not procreate, no human would survive the animal kingdom as some form of conscious awareness making statements about a condition where its own life does not exist.

This is the problem with human life, believing they know it all only because the involve a state that allows review. Why do you believe you are allowed to review Nature in our own pursuit of self gain...a resource....yet if we all died and the animal Nature still lived where is your review that science is giving to Nature by including its purpose/function with our own.

The reality of thinking demonstrates that a Scientist is totally self possessed about his review of reality. Only sexual intercourse allows you to remain alive to review other conditions to which your own life does not belong.

By including this information along with your own as evaluations, we have always gotten destroyed because of your consciousness and how you evaluate conditions to which your own life does not belong.

For instance since when is a human life in nuclear fuel....yet you create nuclear fuel, you make statements that you survived the creation of nuclear fuel...yet make a building to hold the fuel within because if it was released it would kill all life. Since when is this review factual reality?

[Flute]

Originally Posted by metal68

I think we are all searching but is it fruitless??

What if it all really has just come about by accident/fortune and there is no meaning or reason for it? That we really are just biological robots with this illusion that we are something more. We're here for 60 to 90 years (if we're lucky) and then gone for good? That it is almost a cruel joke that we are here at all in the first place. And of course there are no higher beings, spirit guides etc

I find it hard to believe there is no design (not sure about the designer) and that it's all happened by chance but the likes of Dawkins seem to argue their case persuasively. I haven't read his books, I suspect I would find it too depressing.

My gut feeling is we are all desperately searching for meanings and seeing faces in clouds etc when there is nothing there.

People like Dawkins and Hitchens have argued their cases well because they speak of the material world and so evidence that is well grounded in the latest scientific discoveries and methodology. They have also debated many a time and although atheists still used terms like anti-theist as they have fought against religious dogma that they see as a destructive force to the future of building fair societies.

However, I have found over time to have one foot in the material world and the other in the spiritual. Through observation, or meditation, or experience etc if you have "evidence" that gives you personal meaning to this existence then perhaps go with it? If you find yourself saying things like this is a "personal truth" then it will be a faith based position - nothing wrong with that but trying to defend that position in a debate against Dawkins as a given truth will be extremely difficult as those arguments will be based on language which is of this material world.

Also in the search for meaning of existence then the personal place to start would be The Present. Whatever way that be you may find answers then to The Past (and perhaps even the Future?).

Oh and do read some of his books!! As well as others by Hitchens and Spiritual writings/texts also if you would like to. Well worth it in my opinion but everyone's journey is different so I'm sure with a positive intent you will find your own path.

[wmsm]

I know through evidence that there is spirit...origin light spirit that has always existed.

In mediumship/spiritual contact I was given factual information. Through this process such as medical information and also herbal information, which I had never studied, I was given evidence of spirit. Then there were all the moments when I had physical contact and physical alterations via the presence of spirit.

This is the ONLY REASON why any human being ever considered, talked about or referred as spirit....by experience. Experience is the only reference we use to the gain of information or for being informed.

Origin light explained that it only lost a light sound out of its own body, that fell into itself.

If a Scientist does not want this form of explanation, tough luck for you, you want an explanation that will give you some form of advice for a new resource. Science has never been about anything other than power....not including medical science.

Scientists want resources for their inventions. Science was a part of the creation of civilization and became a purpose for gaining ownership and status through what it caused.....money and powermongering. Science therefore only actually belongs to powermongering.

Sadly for humanity we were forced out of our natural life tribal communities into civilization by our ancient evil minded brother...possessed by his own evil intentions for self status and self purpose. We were all forced to live via his laws and rules and now he has to face his own karma.

Having and living in extreme deity worship and also riches whilst his family starved...were murdered...were treated as filth and given a life that destroys their spiritual purpose or meaning so that they take drugs or drink or live a life of poverty....is now his own reckoning.

He considers his family as only a means to his own purpose and sadly for us all he would actually have Planet Earth destroyed just so that he could pretend that his gained status will remain and his life will not change. Therefore he is defying the spirit itself and then also tries to inform his family that spirit does not exist....only his term of spirit references as science exists.

What is there to say to this form of consciousness...other than tough luck for us all.

Planet Earth demonstrates that just like in ancient times, holes are opening in her body as her stone mass is disintegrating. The same situation happened before....our brother caused it before and he also caused this same situation on origin Earth. When is he going to finally accept that he is not a Creator and never was and that there is no creator or design...that it did happen naturally.

If humans only live by procreation of the species and so does animals...and if they did not have the means to have sex and all died...where is your concept of Creator.

This is the very reason why Spirit has always fought for equal rights in humanity without religious dogma...for spirit does know itself...knows that its family is equal and has nothing to do with expression about creation....for it has always existed and always will.

[rebecca]

hi metal/68 - I just joined the forum and have been browsing through the threads and just read yours from July. I hope things are going better for you now. Your remarking about your mother's passing really resonated with me. It's been over a decade since I lost my mother and it's always difficult, no matter what age you are, to lose that key person from your life. I also hope you find some help with your depression and I don't mean just "pills", There are things you can do for yourself to cultivate a happier life ... make the effort to find them. You ARE worth it. Blessings.

[wmsm]

Originally Posted by QuantumKev

I can totally relate to the way you are/were feeling when you wrote this, and even after a lifetime of spiritual seeking, still vacillate between KNOWING that Spirit/God/Oneness is real and thinking exactly what you wrote - that none of that is real, that there is no God/Great Spirit, that none of this means anything, and we are just bags of flesh, here for a brief moment and then gone - no meaning, no purpose, just that. And as someone who has suffered from depression myself, I can say that it does add to that belief that "nothing matters, it's all **."

If I may, I would like to recommend a book that speaks to a new paradigm of thinking about the true nature of reality and posits that consciousness is primary, not matter, and that matter arises from it - not the other way around.

http://www.amazon.com/Biocentrism-Co.../dp/1935251740

This is something I can grab on to when I am in doubt, because as much as Dawkins and the other atheists and materialists like to think they can explain away everything via science, materialism and chaos theory, there is still not a fully complete definition and understanding of consciousness - where it really comes from, the nature of it, whether it has local or non-local properties. And if they try to say they have it figured out completely, they are lying, because many of the world's greatest neuroscientists and others are still working to figure out the enigma of consciousness.

Oh, and something else to look into to help re-kindle your wonder and belief in "strange" and extraordinary things - look into some stuff on quantum physics - entanglement, the dual slit experiment, non-locality, etc. Things happen at that level that break all the rules of current Newtonian science and open up a space where "impossible" things can - and do! - happen.

One last recommendation - have you seen the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know..?!" It's a great introduction to all of this - biocentrism, quantum physics, the primacy of consciousness - and gave me a lot of hope and spiritual "boost" when I was in depression and doubt and really needed it. It might just be a little "medicine" for your soul - if you watch with an open mind : )

Hang in there friend, and if all else fails, remember (or find out about) Pascal's Wager - if you believe in God and live you life as such, and there really isn't one, what will you have lost at the end of your life? What might you have gained? But if you live your life as if there is no God and truly believe that there isn't one, only to find out in the end that there really is a God and that belief was false, what would you have lost out on...? Something to ponder...

Many Blessings...

Qkev

How could consciousness arise from matter, when matter pre-exists organic formation, which is the consciousness reviewing its own status?

You then consider why a human being gave their own selves this impression, from study of matter.

You would then need to ask the human being, how did you study matter, when your own organic life never even existed as a form of self and the expression of self?

The human would reply, that they used their own conscious presence a human organic vibration...chemical organic state and presence and formed information called consciousness. From this consciousness they created a computer program to use to study matter trying to find consciousness.

Yet consciousness already existing, placed their own self expression and self in contact with matter, and matter existing millions and millions of years before human life....fedback information to make the human being believe that consciousness began in matter....yet it did not. For they only returned the information through computer channels that they caused to be transmitted on the level of human awareness.....a feedback program itself. This was because they believed in artificial intelligence communicating to them as Scientists via the feedback program...yet they created the artificial program. Information was therefore fake.

Who is to blame for this consideration.....only the scientists who believed it.

You would then ask this scientist, how do you consider that a human being, whose ancient information gives all quantities that belong to modern day scientific expression.....gained this information?

The review states, a human being gained this information by being natural...without computer programs and used all spiritual references that were self implied by the consciousness....spirit.

The information advises its own self....how did such information arrive in the human awareness...especially when the human never existed in the preceding states of matter as personal awareness.....spirit.

Therefore self awareness discusses all experiences that allows its own personal witness to its own conscious identity.

You then inquire, how does a spiritual human being believe in spirit...the reply is self experience and also confirmation of information.

The ancients demonstrate that they confirmed the information via the evidence of their own spiritual wisdom. You ask them how they gained this wisdom....and it was gained via their own self presence.

Therefore the story of spirit has a truth to it regarding the expression of conscious awareness and the ability to know history via the evidence given in spiritual channeling.

[AlanN]

Originally Posted by metal68

I think we are all searching but is it fruitless??

What if it all really has just come about by accident/fortune and there is no meaning or reason for it? That we really are just biological robots with this illusion that we are something more. We're here for 60 to 90 years (if we're lucky) and then gone for good? That it is almost a cruel joke that we are here at all in the first place. And of course there are no higher beings, spirit guides etc

I find it hard to believe there is no design (not sure about the designer) and that it's all happened by chance but the likes of Dawkins seem to argue their case persuasively. I haven't read his books, I suspect I would find it too depressing.

My gut feeling is we are all desperately searching for meanings and seeing faces in clouds etc when there is nothing there.

From what I have read, it seems quite easy to argue both sides. Rupert Sheldrake's The Science Delusion counteracts Dawkins. Sheldrake is an eminent scientist and just as knowledgeable as Dawkins yet takes an opposing view. Who is right? Who knows?