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  #11  
Old 16-09-2019, 09:23 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
We all seek happiness. Many people look for happiness in consumerism, worldly pleasure, ego activities, material success, etc. Do they find the happiness they seek? Whatever satisfaction and fulfilment is found in these activities is temporary. The material world is limited so any happiness based on the material world is also limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Disagree. Sounds like rubbish to me. There are many moments in our life, all fleeting, all temporary, and yet good memories are kept. Many activities make people happy, as do the people in our lives. Many of them are temporary, yes, but to suggest that people cannot find happiness and would only able to find it in something eternal is rather fundamentalist. What's still stopping you from living in a monastery and eschew the world? Yours is a very sober and depressing world view.
In that case, see reply #5 in this thread.
Meanwhile, going out on a limb, suggesting that iamthat's comment isn't "rubbish" at all, nor is it suggesting eschewing the world, but rather, embracing and transforming it from within - or more significantly, the consciousness it appears to be. While this might be called "fundamentalist" as a disparagement if one disagrees with the premise, such snipes don't necessarily invalidate fundamental universal truths, nor tried and true valid and legitimate methods of yoga, that while perhaps sobering, are in actuality hopeful and empowering in the most profound sense.


p.s. our fondest memories aren't fleeting, distorted, temporary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I think everyone can speak for themselves.
And does!
There is not one person on these boards who isn't.
That's pretty self-evident...(unless it isn't).


Or maybe Altair's comment implies that because a member who in speaking for themselves voices an opinion on the dynamics of collective manifestation, and appropriately uses a plural pronoun, this is somehow usurping or preempting other members not only from having their own beliefs, but from expressing them as well? That would be like saying that not believing in some objective construct means that isn't itself a belief! Logic people! We must use logic!!

~ J
  #12  
Old 16-09-2019, 09:42 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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You got your opinion about this topic Yjotir, and I got mine..

Being obsessed with spirituality at the cost of worldly goals, desires, and pleasures isn't helpful and can make people forget what is important in life. I know that from experience and I've heard other people in my yoga group say the same. It's important to stay grounded, and yes, that includes embracing the world.

Iamthat mentions how certain things don't bring people happiness. How does he know? He doesn't. It's a common theme in spiritual traditions where the idea is that people can only be 'happy' if they're poor, miserable sobs and feel ''great'' talking down on others having temporary enjoyment. Good if that works for some people, but it doesn't for everyone. Okay?
  #13  
Old 16-09-2019, 10:12 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
You got your opinion about this topic Yjotir, and I got mine..

Being obsessed with spirituality at the cost of worldly goals, desires, and pleasures isn't helpful and can make people forget what is important in life. I know that from experience and I've heard other people in my yoga group say the same. It's important to stay grounded, and yes, that includes embracing the world.

Iamthat mentions how certain things don't bring people happiness. How does he know? He doesn't. It's a common theme in spiritual traditions where the idea is that people can only be 'happy' if they're poor, miserable sobs and feel ''great'' talking down on others having temporary enjoyment. Good if that works for some people, but it doesn't for everyone. Okay?
Not in the least suggesting otherwise Altair, but please don't think that your constructs and reasoning are unimpeachable because you have that right.

Considering that the above statements are rife with faulty assumptions:

1)obsessed - why so if it is the legitimate goal and focus? Implies something wrong, excessive, extreme. It's a derogation.
2)cost of - how so if they are directly utilized? If something is necessary what is the sacrifice? (see #1)
3) that the named things are not necessarily in conflict with or limiting of legitimate spiritual practices and goals, but yet represent illegitimate sacrifices necessarily when engaged in spiritual practice. What?
4) that the purely mundane is exclusively important in life? (see # 3)
5) that "staying grounded" as implied is necessarily antithetical to spiritual practice which
6) is necessarily antithetical to physical manifestation
7) that "people can only be 'happy' if they're poor, miserable sobs" - not true and the straw man of worst case doesn't disprove the truth of best case.
8) that comments on how spiritual practices may work necessarily impose mandates on others that they must appropriate them, e.g. "works for some people, but it doesn't for everyone". Agreed - not everyone is ready willing or able at the moment , but on a spiritual discussion site it is noteworthy that some discussion would be on the tentets of various spiritual practice and the theoretical basis of such - but, Not why (defensively) "I don't want to do that stuff!!" Which in case you haven't noticed the curious phenomenon of spiritual discussion attracting myriad cranky depressed rational skeptics who come to argue against spirituality and spiritual practice - in principle - without much of a substantive basis except a personal aversion, including many of the above (faulty) assumptions.

But then assumptions are necessarily part of reasoning a logical conclusion. Falsehood may be reasoned as true and vice versa. In that case Logic is then the subject and object - not the truth. For instance, by the same token, how do you know what he knows, and especially that "He doesn't". Not only another assumption, but directly conflicts with some of your previous assertions.

Conversely, iamthat's comments do assume, and rightly so because of the context in which they are made, that spiritual constructs, tenets, and philosophy come to bear on the particular discussion brought up by the OP. In spiritual circles which are broad and deep, going back hundreds and even thousands of years many of these items are considered basic, first steps, standard fare, and not controversial at all. On a spiritual website this would be accepted as a starting point of discussion - not relegated to an issue of personal taste, preference or aversion as to whether a respondent wants to undertake any spiritual practice - and if they don't - said discussion becomes somehow inappropriate which is the direction your comments seem to go in (but correct me if I'm wrong on that).

Just some things to consider fwiw.

~ J

  #14  
Old 16-09-2019, 10:34 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
In that case, see reply #5 in this thread.
Meanwhile, going out on a limb, suggesting that iamthat's comment isn't "rubbish" at all, nor is it suggesting eschewing the world, but rather, embracing and transforming it from within - or more significantly, the consciousness it appears to be. While this might be called "fundamentalist" as a disparagement if one disagrees with the premise, such snipes don't necessarily invalidate fundamental universal truths, nor tried and true valid and legitimate methods of yoga, that while perhaps sobering, are in actuality hopeful and empowering in the most profound sense.


p.s. our fondest memories aren't fleeting, distorted, temporary?

And does!
There is not one person on these boards who isn't.
That's pretty self-evident...(unless it isn't).


Or maybe Altair's comment implies that because a member who in speaking for themselves voices an opinion on the dynamics of collective manifestation, and appropriately uses a plural pronoun, this is somehow usurping or preempting other members not only from having their own beliefs, but from expressing them as well? That would be like saying that not believing in some objective construct means that isn't itself a belief! Logic people! We must use logic!!

~ J
Aye to all that, Jyotir!
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  #15  
Old 16-09-2019, 10:36 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir

Not in the least suggesting otherwise Altair, but please don't think that your constructs and reasoning are unimpeachable because you have that right.

Considering previous comments regarding plural pronouns - the above comments are making lots of faulty assumptions:

1)obsessed - why so if it is the legitimate goal and focus? Implies something wrong, excessive, extreme. It's a derogation.
2)cost of - how so if they are directly utilized? If something is necessary what is the sacrifice? (see #1)
3) that the named things are not necessarily in conflict with or limiting of legitimate spiritual practices and goals, but yet represent illegitimate sacrifices necessarily when engaged in spiritual practice. What?
4) that the purely mundane is exclusively important in life? (see # 3)
5) that "staying grounded" as implied is necessarily antithetical to spiritual practice which
6) is necessarily antithetical to physical manifestation
7) that "people can only be 'happy' if they're poor, miserable sobs" - not true and the straw man of worst case doesn't disprove the truth of best case.
8) that comments on how spiritual practices may work necessarily impose mandates on others, e.g. "works for some people, but it doesn't for everyone". Agreed - not everyone is ready willing or able at the moment , but on a spiritual discussion site it is noteworthy that some discussion would be on the tentets of various spiritual practice and the theoretical basis of such - but, Not why (defensively) "I don't want to do that stuff!!" Which in case you haven't noticed the curious phenomenon of spiritual discussion attracting myriad cranky depressed rational skeptics who come to argue against spirituality and spiritual practice - in principle, without a substantive basis except a personal aversion , including many of the above assumptions.

But then assumptions are necessarily part of reasoning a logical conclusion. Falsehood may be reasoned as true and vice versa. In that case Logic is then the subject and object - not the truth.

For instance, by the same token, how do you know what he knows, and especially that "He doesn't". Not only another assumption, but directly conflicts with some of your previous assertions.

Conversely, iamthat's comments assume, and rightly so because of the context in which they are made, that spiritual constructs, tenets, and philosophy come to bear on the particular discussion brought up by the OP. In spiritual circles which are broad and deep, going back hundreds and even thousands of years these items are considered basic, first steps, and not controversial at all. On a spiritual website this would be accepted as a starting point of discussion - not relegated to an issue of personal taste or preference or aversion as to whether a respondent wants to undertake a spiritual practice - and if they don't - said discussion becomes somehow inappropriate which is the direction your comments seem to go in (but correct me if I'm wrong on that).

Just some things to consider fwiw.

~ J

And to all that, as well!
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  #16  
Old 16-09-2019, 11:16 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
How do you know this was your intention..?

Good questions overall. I do not know why we incarnate. I haven't found an answer that makes sense, most explanations mention 'past lives' but then most people don't have past life memories. It also doesn't explain why we'd have to endure the same sort of experiences over and over again, or learn to walk, talk, and do other chores over and over again. If we're on a cycle then it's a pretty meaningless cycle. It's what you make of it, probably, so if you want to enjoy yourself and don't chase spirituality than I don't see the issue.
We can not define Spirituality.
We can not agree on reincarnation.
We can not agree if we are a Soul Group.
We can not agree if we have to master certain experiences.
We can not agree we are Old Souls.
We can not all agree what is the purpose of everything.

So are we all, collectively, in multiple hypnotic states? Are we creating are own reality?
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        Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.
   ⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜ ⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜


  #17  
Old 16-09-2019, 11:17 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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.......... and does it really matter?
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        Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.
   ⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜ ⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜


  #18  
Old 16-09-2019, 11:56 PM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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purpose of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
We are souls that deliberately incarnated on this planet to make experiences that are possible only in the physis. Does it even make sense to lead a spiritual life, focus on spiritual themes, and practice spiritual techniques like meditation, when we, as souls, incarnated in the physis with the intention to experience the physis? Shouldn’t we rather be focused on material things?

Aren’t these spiritual activities things that we could do when we are dead and in the beyond? I mean, for what reason did we incarnate in the physis when we then orient ourselves back toward the non-physis were we actually came from?

Since we can be spiritual when we are in the beyond, wouldn’t it be much more plausible to utilize the material life for material experiences? Shouldn’t we here on earth focus on consumerism, worldly pleasure, ego, individualism, and occupational success - or why do we even incarnate?

Lot of people contributed to this thread wonderfully and not contracting them in substance , here are my 2 cents .

The purpose of life - Humans are incarcerated to experience the joy and excitement of game . As in the games, one has free will , game rules , third umpire , opponents , team mates (seniors / juniors) . Enjoying worldly pleasures observing game rules may perfectly be ok . I believe everybody on this thread has agreed on this and none has prohibited enjoyment of worldly pleasures .

Now comes the quantum of worldly pleasures & orientation of life . Here is the relevance of understanding the nature of happiness from worldly pleasures. It's temporary / ephemeral . In order to have long lasting happiness , spiritual journey which regulates worldly pleasures is required .

In order to understand the orientation of life , Hinduism divides the life in 4 stages (called Ashrams) viz , Brahmacharyashram (Life of student - to be dedicated solely to the pursuit of learning devoid of pleasures inappropriate for their age/student life ) , Gruhasthashram (Life of householder - full of pleasures and also responsibilities - this stage may have more pleasures of course through rules of game as aforesaid ) , Vanprasthashram (Getting ready to retire from worldly pleasure / duties and returning to the society what u gained from it ) and finally Sanyasashram ( Being ready to merge in non-physis / spirit for next journey onward ) .

Now the question can come why spirituality now .The answers are
1. Human being is spirit(mind-soul-intellect-memory-sub-consicous - 67%) and matter-body(33%) . These % are roughly approximated from people experienced in spiritual journey.So spirituality helps every day in day out.
2. Man is made of habits . So changes never come if human life is not trained or oriented towards it carefully and intentionally.
  #19  
Old 17-09-2019, 01:38 AM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
Lot of people contributed to this thread wonderfully and not contracting them in substance , here are my 2 cents .

The purpose of life - Humans are incarcerated to experience the joy and excitement of game . As in the games, one has free will , game rules , third umpire , opponents , team mates (seniors / juniors) . Enjoying worldly pleasures observing game rules may perfectly be ok . I believe everybody on this thread has agreed on this and none has prohibited enjoyment of worldly pleasures .

Now comes the quantum of worldly pleasures & orientation of life . Here is the relevance of understanding the nature of happiness from worldly pleasures. It's temporary / ephemeral . In order to have long lasting happiness , spiritual journey which regulates worldly pleasures is required .

In order to understand the orientation of life , Hinduism divides the life in 4 stages (called Ashrams) viz , Brahmacharyashram (Life of student - to be dedicated solely to the pursuit of learning devoid of pleasures inappropriate for their age/student life ) , Gruhasthashram (Life of householder - full of pleasures and also responsibilities - this stage may have more pleasures of course through rules of game as aforesaid ) , Vanprasthashram (Getting ready to retire from worldly pleasure / duties and returning to the society what u gained from it ) and finally Sanyasashram ( Being ready to merge in non-physis / spirit for next journey onward ) .

Now the question can come why spirituality now .The answers are
1. Human being is spirit(mind-soul-intellect-memory-sub-consicous - 67%) and matter-body(33%) . These % are roughly approximated from people experienced in spiritual journey.So spirituality helps every day in day out.
2. Man is made of habits . So changes never come if human life is not trained or oriented towards it carefully and intentionally.
Here's another '2 cents' in the above regard, excerpted from my treatise:
As always, beware over-simplistic interpretation: don’t take what I’ve just said to mean it would therefore be ‘good’ for you to preemptively eschew and deny your self or others the enjoyment of physiosocial pleasures (benefits, comforts, etc.) or, worse, to counterphobically ‘mortify’ your self by way of ‘sacrificially’ suffering pain (deprivation, difficulty, etc.) as many have historically done for supposedly God (i.e. Spirit of Life) ‘loving’ reasons, and many, seeking relief from feelings of guilt and associated anxieties by way of ‘penalizing’ themselves ‘in advance’, still neurotically do. There is really nothing ‘wrong’ with choosing to augment The Flow of Love and Joy either by and for oneself or in relation to and association with others by way of experiencing and sharing personal and social pleasures (etc.) and/or by way of ameliorating or avoiding personal and social experience of pain (etc.). As a matter of fact, souls may indeed ‘awaken’ as well as ‘awaken others’ to the delights and blessings of Love‑and-Joy-fully participating in The Flow of Life in such fashion. Among other things, one may thereby realize that shared Love and Joy of any kind – just eating a meal together with someone else, for example – is much more psychospiritually ‘fulfilling’ than what may be experienced in ‘i’solation along the same lines. Some even go so far as to postulate this – ‘this’ being the possibility of sharing Love and Joy in relation to and with others in a physiosocial context – to be the reason why (what they call) God created our world in the first place!

Consequences boomerang and problems in this regard only become Sisyphean if and when physiosocial pleasure-gain-comfort-n-security seeking and pain-loss-difficulty-n-uncertainty avoidance become people’s main focus and motivation such that these are overly, or worse solely, depended on and indulged in for purposes of Love and Joy experience and expression. In which case, folks just end up being completely addicted to such modes of gratification pursuit. Awareness and consideration of factors that affect as well as possibilities which stem from psychospiritual development – the consequent actualization of increasingly loving and joyful integration and communion with The Flow of Life Itself (not just some others ‘in’ It) whereby and wherein one may eventually whole‑mind-n‑heart-edly ‘groove’ with Its ever-ongoing Being‑n‑Doing process – are then given short shrift. Vital choices are consequently not made in relation to such most soul‑fulfilling, because ever-ongrowing, Love and Joy experience and expression prospect in their cases.

To proceed judiciously in this regard, one has to not only consciously recognize the fact that physiosocial desire-n-aversion activated objectives, if and as perseveratively pursued, eventually just lead to one’s getting entangled in competitive, and hence ultimately conflictual, win-or-lose relationships with others who are similarly motivated, as well as emotionally register the implications of the fact that the ‘fruits’ thereof are evanescent (they are ‘here today and gone tomorrow’, so ‘you’ can’t ‘take’ them with ‘you’ in any case!), one has to also appreciate the fact that even the ‘greatest’ Love and Joy which one may thereby (i.e. by way of ‘successes’ in said physiosocial desire-fulfillment and aversion-avoidance regards) experience and possibly share with others will never be completely psychospiritually fulfilling, not just because of their limited duration mind you, but because such kinds of gratification don’t result in your experiencing and expressing what you soulfully(!) are (‘above and beyond’ the parameters of your ‘carnality’) which is what one experiences and expresses when and as one expands the sense of one’s ‘i’dentity to include all others and therefore and thereby psychospiritually ‘unites’ with The Entity of The Flow of Love and Joy of Life Itself and creatively ‘devotes’ one’s self in service therewith and thereto.
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Last edited by davidsun : 17-09-2019 at 05:16 AM.
  #20  
Old 17-09-2019, 02:00 AM
MAYA EL
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reincarnation is a mistranslation of ancient Middle Eastern religious codex. You do not reincarnate because you did not exist until your parents make you this is the magic of life now although you are you you have and job title so to speak this job title for torch to carry I should say it's because of your bloodline and it changes every single time you mix your Bloodline with somebody else's now in that bloodline all of your ancestors that have learned something have contributed to your specific Bloodlines akashic records that you can tap into if you find out how .
In the animal kingdom it's called instant.

But you are here to gain understanding to be an individual to make your understanding of life is unique to you which is the opposite of the cancerous concept going around where we need to "all become one" which is spiritual suicide.
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