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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spirituality

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  #1  
Old 07-07-2018, 06:16 AM
SkyGodWarrior SkyGodWarrior is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 719
 
Rational Thought & The Paradox...

This post is in response to a comment that was made.....

Many people find it hard to believe the miracles of life... and when one asks another it is often hard to put into words because of the source of the information often comes in an instant and in the form of a emotion or understanding.....

How does one translate something that if was spread out in time would take hrs to understand but you got it somehow instantly....?

Do you often notice how some people who are really rational dont believe in things that are spiritual in nature... even faced with a circumstance that is miracle or magical in nature and they refuse this and look for a rational solution....?

this is the path that a being must take in order to find their way back to source... to the truth..... often I say the more rational you are the more work you have to do in order to realize that things are irrational.... The only limitation of rationality is that it can be manipulated into inhibiting what is unlimited and infinite.

it is a complex subject that has no answer but if one simple understands its nature will find its answers... it is interesting to think of such examples.... chick or the egg..... how can their be an egg if there is no chicken? how can their be a chick if there is no egg? Big bang or spontaneous existence? What created such a bang? What created the conditions to create the bang.... what created that? These same paradoxes are in everything if one takes to the time to dive deep..... another easy example would be material science or subatomic particles..... with every machine we make in order to see smaller objects at the core of atom the more we have to build another machine to see even closer...... does it go on forever? lol.... how does such things even exist?

this is the nature at is core of rational thought and the paradox.....
ask questions lol debate... learn...
__________________
I ask that you ask questions if you have them on what I have said. I have lots of experiences and feel that I can communicate them in a way that you can understand.
:)
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  #2  
Old 07-07-2018, 09:25 AM
marcel marcel is offline
Seeker
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 27
 
I think the distiction between "spiritual" and "rational" is moot, because most people are neither just one or just the other.
A rational person will not limit his belief to only the things he can see and a spiritual person will not limit his belief to only the things he feels.
Whether someone believes in a "miracle" does not depend on leaning more towards spirituality or rational thought. It depends on ones imagination.
If someone tells you something you haven't experienced yourself you wouldn't just believe it. You don't need proof but you would try to imagine it to be true and then decide if it fits into your set of beliefs.
Btw. the chicken/egg thing is no paradox. Neither was first and there's a perfectly rational explanation for that.
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  #3  
Old 07-07-2018, 10:44 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: U.S. Southwest
Posts: 2,658
  Starman's Avatar
I think humanity, in general, either strictly chooses, or vacillates, between two paths;
the path of the head and the path of the heart. Back in the 1990’s I did some comparative
dynamics on these paths, which I have listed a little from that below, but I do not think there
is a better or worst in either path, although I am aware that some people prefer one to the other.
These paths are how we have chosen to cultivate our human potential, and I have chosen to do
my human growth and development on both paths. I am aware that some will disagree with what
I am sharing below, and that is okay, but I do not see “right” or “wrong” in this, rather I just see
perspectives.

PATH OF THE HEART/PATH OF THE HEAD
Intuitive Knowing/Rational Logic
Subjective/Objective
Right Brain/Left Brain
Creative & Flexible/Linear & Concrete
Transformational Synthesis/Conceptual Analysis of Constructs
Covert Sublime Consciousness/Overt Self Consciousness
Deductive Experiential/Inductive Theoretical
Simple Spaciousness/Complex Elaboration
Fluid Process/Static Content
Journey Oriented/Outcome & Goal Oriented
Emotional Intelligence/Mental Intelligence
Affective Feeling/Cognitive Thinking
Here and Now/Past and Future
Having a Connection/Having an Interpretation

This is but a sample of some of what I came up with back in the 1990’s when I was doing this comparative study.
An most probably the majority of people vacillates between both paths, but I can remember when I was strictly
in my head and knew little to nothing about my heart.
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  #4  
Old 07-07-2018, 06:50 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Golden Bay, New Zealand
Posts: 3,580
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGodWarrior
Many people find it hard to believe the miracles of life... and when one asks another it is often hard to put into words because of the source of the information often comes in an instant and in the form of a emotion or understanding.....

Do you often notice how some people who are really rational dont believe in things that are spiritual in nature... even faced with a circumstance that is miracle or magical in nature and they refuse this and look for a rational solution....?

this is the path that a being must take in order to find their way back to source... to the truth..... often I say the more rational you are the more work you have to do in order to realize that things are irrational.... The only limitation of rationality is that it can be manipulated into inhibiting what is unlimited and infinite.

Or perhaps everything is rational and there is nothing magical or miraculous.

By which I mean that everything is governed by the laws of Creation, and those things which we might consider to be magical or miraculous are actually governed by laws which most of us do not yet understand.

Nowadays we take things like television and aeroplanes for granted, yet two hundred years ago these would have been considered as miraculous. So perhaps things which nowadays we might consider miraculous will become commonplace in the future.

Some people like to think that science is rational, but unfortunately it is not. It promotes a very limited world-view, and anything which it cannot explain is either rejected or distorted to fit into a very limited perspective.

For example, the near death experience (NDE). Those who don't believe that consciousness can exist beyond the physical body come up with all sorts of explanations for NDEs - eg the dying brain fires off loads of neurons which produce the experience of leaving the body, seeing a Being of Light, etc. They consider that this is the rational explanation for NDEs, whereas they are really distorting a phenomenon to fit their preconceived ideas. If such people were truly rational they would consider the phenomenon of NDE with an open mind and consider all possible explanations, including the possibility that consciousness is not dependent on the physical brain.

Dean Radin has written some interesting books where he considers the limitations of the so-called rational scientific approach to non-physical phenomena, including many cases where scientists reject empirical evidence simply because it contradicts their cherished "rational" beliefs.

Peace.
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2018, 01:37 PM
Lorelyen
Posts: n/a
 
To me, if you believe (i.e. the external phenomenon cannot be observed independently) and it's therefore noumenal / esoteric, then it conforms to an internal logic unique to the individual which in turn depends on the premise/s one creates.

As it's almost impossible to describe these premises entirely with words (because everyone's internal definition of the symbols of experiences differ) discussion can only be limited.

What's irrational to me is when someone's response arises from something they don't understand about themselves - they haven't had time to set up premises to support/create their internal logic. Could be argued that there's a cause for their reaction somewhere but if it exists outside their understanding that would seem to count as irrational.

I don't think that rationality and spirituality are mutually exclusive. We can't really know.

Last edited by Lorelyen : 08-07-2018 at 02:42 PM.
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2018, 06:36 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,089
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGodWarrior
This post is in response to a comment that was made.....

Many people find it hard to believe the miracles of life... and when one asks another it is often hard to put into words because of the source of the information often comes in an instant and in the form of a emotion or understanding.....

How does one translate something that if was spread out in time would take hrs to understand but you got it somehow instantly....?

Do you often notice how some people who are really rational dont believe in things that are spiritual in nature... even faced with a circumstance that is miracle or magical in nature and they refuse this and look for a rational solution....?

this is the path that a being must take in order to find their way back to source... to the truth..... often I say the more rational you are the more work you have to do in order to realize that things are irrational.... The only limitation of rationality is that it can be manipulated into inhibiting what is unlimited and infinite.

it is a complex subject that has no answer but if one simple understands its nature will find its answers... it is interesting to think of such examples.... chick or the egg..... how can their be an egg if there is no chicken? how can their be a chick if there is no egg? Big bang or spontaneous existence? What created such a bang? What created the conditions to create the bang.... what created that? These same paradoxes are in everything if one takes to the time to dive deep..... another easy example would be material science or subatomic particles..... with every machine we make in order to see smaller objects at the core of atom the more we have to build another machine to see even closer...... does it go on forever? lol.... how does such things even exist?

this is the nature at is core of rational thought and the paradox.....
ask questions lol debate... learn...

It seems to me that you focus here on what you want to demonstrate because it's what you believe, or try to force yourself to believe (more likely). So, you conveniently contrast things that aren't in contrast, you list unanswerable questions that have answers you choose to discard.

The growth path is neither pure reason, nor pure faith. Neither can stand only on its own merits. Most people don't grow because they choose to mimic others' paths, without diligently working on figuring out what-why-how. Willing isn't enough for growth; method matters.

As far as I know ... :)
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  #7  
Old 09-07-2018, 02:49 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,243
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I suppose it really does depend on where one's “Assemblage Point of Awareness” (Castaneda quote) is assembled.
Perceiving form reality only with one’s physical senses gives rise to the thought that all psychic or non-physical phenomena is irrational or just the mental aberrations of the feeble minded natives, the low IQ no-hopers unable to achieve anything real in life

The Yoga Nidra view:
http://www.ayurvedacollege.com/artic...ice-yoga-nidra
Quote:
One of the early realizations is that the body is not a solid structure but rather a densely packed field of energy. At this time the practitioner realizes that he or she is neither their body nor their mind.
My own formula goes something like this (and others can perhaps explain this a lot better):
What our Energy Bodies/Fields subconsciously/intuitively perceive (become aware of) – the Astral level dreams up and/or our Right Hemisphere receives – which is then further condensed into words by our Left Hemispheres.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Dean Radin has written some interesting books where he considers the limitations of the so-called rational scientific approach to non-physical phenomena, including many cases where scientists reject empirical evidence simply because it contradicts their cherished "rational" beliefs.
Looked Dean Radin up, and yes – sounds good!:
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/586114
Quote:
Awareness is more fundamental than space, time, matter or energy.
Through awareness you can see past, present and future, because awareness is before space-time.
Interestingly one of my Aboriginal teachers explained “Dreamtime” in very similar terms.

Quote:
Awareness is unitary. There is just one mind.
Physical world emerges from awareness.

I used to think that all people experiencing psychic phenomena were ‘Spiritual’ (because they are aware through their Energy Fields), but now since I know 2 (malicious) narcissists who have highly developed psychic abilities, I no longer hold my former belief.

Here Dean Radin’s chart becomes interesting:
https://www.aestheticimpact.com/_Ima...pectrum2-1.gif

Because a narcissist “Assemblage Point of Awareness” is so firmly lodged in the Self-Image i.e. the validation of Me/I in-the-eyes-of-others, there is no free-and-independent-will energy left to intend anything else but the validation and the fortification of that Self-Image.
And since (in my books) the “Mystical Union” entails total surrender of the Me/I (being able achieve anything) a narcissist is (by their own will) barred from this Non-Dual Union.
But of course those who do experience Non-Duality don’t see themselves as anything especially “Spiritual” at all.
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  #8  
Old 09-07-2018, 07:25 AM
Lorelyen
Posts: n/a
 
One has to be pragmatic. You won't get as far as surviving to post here unless you have a computer/phone which means you bought it or obtained it at someone else's expense (a present?) which means you probably have a job - a rational approach to survival. Your employer will be following rational procedures or if you're a freelancer you'll have to conform to certain procedures....which allow you the time to pursue your spiritual agenda. A lucky few can combine both: priests, nuns, monks, authors of feel-better books....
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  #9  
Old 09-07-2018, 09:00 AM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGodWarrior
Do you often notice how some people who are really rational dont believe in things that are spiritual in nature... even faced with a circumstance that is miracle or magical in nature and they refuse this and look for a rational solution....?
And people who are very Spiritual in nature can completely ignore a rational explanation for the sake of.... thinking they're Spiritual? But what makes a miracle Spiritual in nature?

Both truth and rationality are relative to one's own agenda.

The answer to this is not a Spiritual one but a psychological one, and if you dismiss that idea then you understand why people would dismiss miracles for the sake of rationality. The paradox has been created by your mind and it does not exist in itself; there are people who believe that miracles happen and there are people who believe that there is a rational explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGodWarrior
The only limitation of rationality is that it can be manipulated into inhibiting what is unlimited and infinite.
The only limitation of Spirituality is that it can be manipulated into inhibiting what is unlimited and infinite, as in inhibiting its consciousness to only that which is Spiritual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGodWarrior
it is a complex subject that has no answer but if one simple understands its nature will find its answers...
It is simple binary thinking. Really none of what you've posted there are paradoxes, they are areas into which consciousness can be expanded.
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  #10  
Old 09-02-2019, 06:07 AM
janielee
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
I suppose it really does depend on where one's “Assemblage Point of Awareness” (Castaneda quote) is assembled.
Perceiving form reality only with one’s physical senses gives rise to the thought that all psychic or non-physical phenomena is irrational or just the mental aberrations of the feeble minded natives, the low IQ no-hopers unable to achieve anything real in life

The Yoga Nidra view:
http://www.ayurvedacollege.com/artic...ice-yoga-nidra

My own formula goes something like this (and others can perhaps explain this a lot better):
What our Energy Bodies/Fields subconsciously/intuitively perceive (become aware of) – the Astral level dreams up and/or our Right Hemisphere receives – which is then further condensed into words by our Left Hemispheres.



Looked Dean Radin up, and yes – sounds good!:
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/586114

Interestingly one of my Aboriginal teachers explained “Dreamtime” in very similar terms.


I used to think that all people experiencing psychic phenomena were ‘Spiritual’ (because they are aware through their Energy Fields), but now since I know 2 (malicious) narcissists who have highly developed psychic abilities, I no longer hold my former belief.

Here Dean Radin’s chart becomes interesting:
https://www.aestheticimpact.com/_Ima...pectrum2-1.gif

Because a narcissist “Assemblage Point of Awareness” is so firmly lodged in the Self-Image i.e. the validation of Me/I in-the-eyes-of-others, there is no free-and-independent-will energy left to intend anything else but the validation and the fortification of that Self-Image.
And since (in my books) the “Mystical Union” entails total surrender of the Me/I (being able achieve anything) a narcissist is (by their own will) barred from this Non-Dual Union.
But of course those who do experience Non-Duality don’t see themselves as anything especially “Spiritual” at all.

Agree and enjoy your posts, sentient

PS Are you Aboriginal, or do you just follow their teachings? Are Aboriginal folk very spiritual as a culture?

Thanks and apologies if any questions are intrusive

JL
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