Discussion on the Buddhist Jhanas

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I don't have the sage's name since it was a one-time meeting that had a lasting effect. When you read what I am writing now, you will understand why I don't have his name.

I was in the Krishna tent at the Khumba Mela with a bunch of friends. There was food, entertainment, and lectures there but it wasn't really satisfying. I decided to go outside for a while and crossed the gravel street to go to the park opposite the tent. I was standing behind a tree when I saw a man in a black turban and regular dress clothes sitting in the park near a fire chanting "Svaha" repeatedly. There was something magnetic about his being and I was just staring from behind the tree. When he spotted me, he signalled (no words) for me to come near. He then pointed to the ground and I sat before him. He took out his japa beads and started chanting silently. I similarly took out my rudraksha japa beads and started chanting my mantra silently. (For me, chanting a mantra reduces my thoughts to one --- the mantra --- and that leads me into the silence once the mantra chanting subsides.) At that point, I was in the meditative stillness. A question would arise in my mind and it was immediately answered silently in an indescribable manner. It was as if my whole mind was filled with the details of the response just as one sees the whole countryside in one moment when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. Once I had digested the response, silence was restored. At some point, another question would arise and the response came in a similar manner. This continued until I had no more questions. At that point, I bowed to the master; he nodded. I left without saying a word as it was intuitively obvious that all was completed.

When I returned to the tent, my colleagues asked me where I had been since I had been gone for over 3 hours. When I described what had happened, they were skeptical and wanted to see this man. We immediately went out to the park where the man's fire was still burning but the man was no longer there. They looked at me skeptically. There was another man nearby who had apparently been there all afternoon. I asked him where the man in the black turban had gone. He turned to the point where that man had been sitting and exclaimed in surprise that the man had been there just a few minutes before. He had no idea of where he had gone. He then added that the Black Turban Man and I had been in a trance-like state for hours earlier and that people were staring at us because we were both motionless for that extended period of time and seemed completely unaware of our surroundings during that extended silent connection.

I never saw the man in the black turban again, but I will never forget that. I use this example because there was an eye-witness to our silent trance-like meeting. Hence, I can't give you the name of the sage. All I can say is that all my questions were answered in this highly unusual manner. (This has happened more than once with different sages, so it no longer strikes me as "highly unusual". )

Very nice experience. Thank you for sharing.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I was thinking more about your question during meditative sleep last night and I can answer your question a little more specifically with a personal example and a comment from Ramana Maharshi.

Personally, I used the Satipattana Sutra of the Buddha as a guide to practice for an extended period of time. I would correspondingly meditate on the body, the feelings, the thoughts, and so on in accordance with the instructions in the Sutra. Eventually, there came a point where I went beyond the body, feelings, and thoughts into the Great Stillness where the jhanas manifest. In conscious sleep, nothing arose to disturb the silence as well. Therefore, what was once a very integral part of my practice was no longer needed. (This obviously took years for me.) I am still aware of my body, feelings, and thoughts but in a different way now as the meditative practice is no longer really needed in its original form. One can argue that the practice continues, but not really.

Ramana Maharshi used to advise people to meditate on "I AM" with no other thoughts in keeping with his interpretation of "Be still and know ... that ... I AM ... god". Eventually, he indicated, "that which is does not even say I AM". This signalled the end of that particular practice for him.

Thank you.

Now you know that Buddhism and what Ramana taught are two different things.

Ramana would say that silence is the self.

Buddhism say's silence is only part of the equation. Void=form and form=void.

Silence alone is a trap. Also silence continues to grow as one progress both in meditation and daily life.

Form as I mentioned above from the Heart Sutra would be energy. In Ramana terms you could say void/shiva and form/Shakti. You have to realize both.

Do you do much energy work?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Thank you.

Now you know that Buddhism and what Ramana taught are two different things.

Ramana would say that silence is the self.

Buddhism say's silence is only part of the equation. Void=form and form=void.

Silence alone is a trap. Also silence continues to grow as one progress both in meditation and daily life.

Form as I mentioned above from the Heart Sutra would be energy. In Ramana terms you could say void/shiva and form/Shakti. You have to realize both.

Do you do much energy work?

Silence, of course, is not the goal. It is , however, important in order to restore the "clear vision". At that point, one can freely participate in the drama of creation as one's outlook changes considerably when one can see clearly. At the deepest levels, I do not see any contradictions between what Buddha taught and what Ramana taught. (Of course, the Buddha held back a bit, as evidenced by his quote: "What I teach is like the leaves in my hand. What I know is like the leaves in the forest." Ramana does not hold back as much.)

Just as Lord Jesus said, "I and the Father are one and the same", so I believe that "form and emptiness" are one and the same just as dream-objects (form) and the dreamer (akin to the void in the deep sleep state) are one and the same. (Void/shiva and form/shakti are excellent parallels in Ramana-like terminology.)

As for energy work, I am very sensitive to energy as I do not see auras or read minds nor do I care to do so.

When I am in situations where I need to see the "big picture" more clearly, I enter the silence and that is akin to soaring like and eagle into the sky of consciousness, seeing the big picture, and then returning to address the situation at hand as best as possible. Without the silence and stillness of mind, I'm not sure if that is completely doable as one thoughts/feelings can interfere with the clear vision.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Silence, of course, is not the goal. It is , however, important in order to restore the "clear vision". At that point, one can freely participate in the drama of creation as one's outlook changes considerably when one can see clearly. At the deepest levels, I do not see any contradictions between what Buddha taught and what Ramana taught. (Of course, the Buddha held back a bit, as evidenced by his quote: "What I teach is like the leaves in my hand. What I know is like the leaves in the forest." Ramana does not hold back as much.)

Just as Lord Jesus said, "I and the Father are one and the same", so I believe that "form and emptiness" are one and the same just as dream-objects (form) and the dreamer (akin to the void in the deep sleep state) are one and the same. (Void/shiva and form/shakti are excellent parallels in Ramana-like terminology.)

As for energy work, I am very sensitive to energy as I do not see auras or read minds nor do I care to do so.

When I am in situations where I need to see the "big picture" more clearly, I enter the silence and that is akin to soaring like and eagle into the sky of consciousness, seeing the big picture, and then returning to address the situation at hand as best as possible. Without the silence and stillness of mind, I'm not sure if that is completely doable as one thoughts/feelings can interfere with the clear vision.

The deep sleep state is more of a reference to nothing. You are not there, there is no experience. There is no form/energy in deep sleep.

More it would be that all things are energy. Kundalini is really nothing more than universal consciousness. You are that energy, that consciousness that is all things.

Would you say you have reached the stage where in daily life you are observing thoughts, feelings etc... like you are a witness to them?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The deep sleep state is more of a reference to nothing. You are not there, there is no experience. There is no form/energy in deep sleep.

More it would be that all things are energy. Kundalini is really nothing more than universal consciousness. You are that energy, that consciousness that is all things.

Would you say you have reached the stage where in daily life you are observing thoughts, feelings etc... like you are a witness to them?

When one practices "conscious sleep", one realizes that there is indeed an energy in that state. (Potential energy is still an energy even though there are no thoughts in that state --- just peace. One does not even label it "energy" in that state as there are no thoughts.) As you pointed out, there is a nothingness there but that "nothing" is most assuredly not "nothing". ) It is hard to describe the process of remaining aware in the deep sleep state and watching dream formation (when it happens) from start to finish as well as the transitions between the three states (deep sleep, dream state, so-called waking state).

I differentiate between universal consciousness and pure awareness as the difference is subtle. Universal consciousness suggests an "I" that is conscious even if it is the great "I AM". In pure awareness, there is no "I" --- just awareness with no subject/object (witness) relationship in the traditional sense. I am assuming that is what Ramana meant when he said, "That which is doesn't even say I AM" .... at some point.

The above should answer your question about observing thoughts/feelings. My mantra is dualistic in nature but its shortened form is non-dualistic and I can see when it shifts spontaneously from one to the other while disappearing completely at times.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

When one practices "conscious sleep", one realizes that there is indeed an energy in that state. (Potential energy is still an energy even though there are no thoughts in that state --- just peace. One does not even label it "energy" in that state as there are no thoughts.) As you pointed out, there is a nothingness there but that "nothing" is most assuredly not "nothing". ) It is hard to describe the process of remaining aware in the deep sleep state and watching dream formation (when it happens) from start to finish as well as the transitions between the three states (deep sleep, dream state, so-called waking state).

Would it be more correct to say, that the 'knowingness' doesn't disappear even as the nothingness appears to be our experience in the sleep state?. If one is dreaming then your still imagining through the mind. So the thinking and imagining continues. Even as we may not be participating with 'otherness' in form, the knowing state doesn't cease to be, it would be that the mind is not clouding the current awareness of that knowing. We could also say that deep sleep is our current experience uncoloured by mind, or the current experience is the experience of deep sleep, coloured by the mind through this view.

I differentiate between universal consciousness and pure awareness as the difference is subtle. Universal consciousness suggests an "I" that is conscious even if it is the great "I AM". In pure awareness, there is no "I" --- just awareness with no subject/object (witness) relationship in the traditional sense. I am assuming that is what Ramana meant when he said, "That which is doesn't even say I AM" .... at some point.

The above should answer your question about observing thoughts/feelings. My mantra is dualistic in nature but its shortened form is non-dualistic and I can see when it shifts spontaneously from one to the other while disappearing completely at times.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The deep sleep state is more of a reference to nothing. You are not there, there is no experience. There is no form/energy in deep sleep.

More it would be that all things are energy. Kundalini is really nothing more than universal consciousness. You are that energy, that consciousness that is all things.

Would you say you have reached the stage where in daily life you are observing thoughts, feelings etc... like you are a witness to them?

Experience doesn't always take form until the form itself creates it into being. So even as you sleep, consciousness is consistently creating new form even as you may not be 'fully aware' of yourself as the creation or form coming into being. What is, is already, so the 'isness' is and continues even as you sleep.

I suppose you could say even with all this going on, that deep sleep isn't a state because the mind isn't present, even as the mind is still thinking and imagining itself into new form or creation. You could then refer to deep sleep as 'just consciousness'. But even so, without objects there is still that subtle level of 'things there' even as you may not remember, so in this view it could be said deep sleep is a state of conscious or unconscious awareness, unaware / aware, continuously of itself

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I don't have the sage's name since it was a one-time meeting that had a lasting effect. When you read what I am writing now, you will understand why I don't have his name.)............

Lovely – lovely experience, thank you for sharing!

You expressed ‘silent communication’ so very well.

[jonesboy]

From the Secret Supreme.


The second state is called pralayakala. This is the state of
negation, where the whole world is negated. And the one who
resides in this world of negation is called pralayakala
pramatri, the observer of the pralayakala state. And this
pramatri, this perceiver, does not experience the state of this
voidness because it is actually the state of unawareness. This
state would be observed at the time of murcchii, when one
becomes comatose, which is like unnatural and heavy sleep,
like deep sleep devoid of dreams. And the observer,
pralayakala pramatri, resides in that void unawareness.

These two states function in the state of individuality, not in
the state of your real nature. These are states of worldly people,
not spiritual aspirants.

In jiigrat, wakefulness, the individual subjective body is
traveling in the world of objectivity (prameya), which comprises
the world of elements, names, forms, words, and sounds.
Here, it loses consciousness of its subjectivity and becomes
one with the objective world. In svapna, the dreaming state, the
individual subjective body travels in the impressions
(samskiiras) of the objective world. Here, it also loses the
awareness of its subjective consciousness. It takes hold of
these impressions and becomes one with the world of impres.
sions. In SU!fupti, deep dreamless sleep, it has entered a state of
complete void (sunya). If it was previously traveling in the
world of objectivity in the waking state, then upon entering
deep sleep, it loses consciousness of this objectivity and also of
its subjectivity. If it was previously traveling in the world of
impressions in the dreaming state, then upon entering deep
sleep, it loses consciousness of these impressions. In deep
sleep, it is no longer aware of anything. The impressions of the
objective world remain but these are as if dead. When it again
returns from the state of deep sleep, these impressions, which
were seemingly dead, again come to life. And when, by the
. grace of a master, this subjective body enters into subjective
consciousness with full awareness, and maintaining μnbroken
awareness becomes fully illumined in its own Self, this is
called the fourth state, turya. And when this individual subjective
body takes a firm hold of turya and does not lose consciousness
for even a moment, then it is established in that state
called turyiititii, above the fourth.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Would it be more correct to say, that the 'knowingness' doesn't disappear even as the nothingness appears to be our experience in the sleep state?. If one is dreaming then your still imagining through the mind. So the thinking and imagining continues. Even as we may not be participating with 'otherness' in form, the knowing state doesn't cease to be, it would be that the mind is not clouding the current awareness of that knowing. We could also say that deep sleep is our current experience uncoloured by mind, or the current experience is the experience of deep sleep, coloured by the mind through this view.

I don't think that there is really any "correct" way to say it since truth regarding this matter cannot be fully expressed in words.

One could, however, say that "the nothingness appears to be our experience in the sleep state" though it is clearly NOT nothing since a whole dream universe can manifest from it. In addition, there are still subtle vibrations present or the body wouldn't still be there lying in bed or wherever. ()

In any case, since awareness persists in the deep sleep state BEFORE dream formation, it is clear that there is indeed something there despite the "appearance" of "nothingness".

At this point, words are obviously inadequate. How does one verbalize the appearance of nothingness that is really not nothing? Such discussions and meditations inevitably lead to silence.