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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #451  
Old 03-11-2019, 06:26 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Originally Posted by Altair
Gem, if you can provide a credible explanation [preferably one that does not rely on magical thinking or imaginary beings] than feel free to share it with us.



There are no ''missing links''. Second, although evolution does not disprove the existence of god(s), natural selection [https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evoli...rticle/evo_25] shows us we do not require god(s) to explain life on earth. If the gods exist than they had/have nothing to do with life's journey on earth.

If you believe in a god then why not believe in the Easter Bunny?




I can't reasonably explain it, but neither can anyone else, the pyramids that is, and evolution theory based on natural selection is pretty much proven genetics. That happens. It doesn't explain life's origin and there's a few mysteries along the way, but genes are carried forward for millenia by the ones that get to breed, so natural selection is real.


We celebrate the Easter Bunny in our family, but not God... and we really only care about the chocolate.
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  #452  
Old 03-11-2019, 07:09 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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I agree it doesn't explain origins of life. It describes life's journey, and this does not necessitate interference of god(s) or other 'higher' beings. There are those organisms that prove to be able to adapt in any given environment and pass on their genes, and those that don't and go extinct. No 'guidance' or 'creator' is observed. Obviously this does not necessarily mean gods can't exist, just that they don't meddle in physical life. In a spiritual belief system, instead of seeing such beings as *creators* perhaps it's better to view them as described in Buddhism and Jainism, as to my knowledge there they are not creators, just souls incarnating elsewhere.

By the way, the Easter Bunny is very much underrated. It is the best chocolate of the year. I do eat animals, they just have to be made out of chocolate!!!
  #453  
Old 03-11-2019, 07:21 PM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
I wasn't familiar with it. I just had a quick look, although many of the terms are beyond my understanding. It postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons.

My personal view is that consciousness has its origins way beyond anything physical, and that includes the quantum level.

Peace

Penrose has a different take on the Copenhagen interpretation of collapse of the wave function. Instead of (conscious?) observation/measurement causing collapse he postulates the collapse is an objective reduction of the wave function and causes a discreet instance of consciousness, and due to quantum entanglement with the microtubules imparts or makes availabe that consciousness to the brain. The microtubule part of the hypothesis is the product of Hameroff's investigations as an anesthesiologist.

In physics the Holy Grail is a theory of everything describing the unified field which is the source of everything, all particles and forces/fields. String & M theory are mathematical attempts to crack it.

On the spiritual side, and specifically non-dualism consciousness is at the foundation of everything.

Maybe the unified field and consciousness/awareness are one in the same and at the gross level of existence we inhabit Orch OR is the manifestation of consciousness from our perspective?

Penrose doesn't like to dive into that kind of speculation however Hameroff isn't so shy but still doesn't go all the way.

Orch OR isn't anywhere near ready for prime time, but it's interesting and pretty much the only hypothesis that attempts to directly identify a mechanism for consciousness.

As for consciousness being beyond physical wouldn't that be a dualist take? I guess that's one of the things about Orch OR that I find interesting because for quite a while, decades, I thought Divinity wasn't supernatural, that in fact it had to be the foundation of existence.

Last edited by JustASimpleGuy : 03-11-2019 at 09:24 PM.
  #454  
Old 04-11-2019, 01:47 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I agree it doesn't explain origins of life. It describes life's journey, and this does not necessitate interference of god(s) or other 'higher' beings. There are those organisms that prove to be able to adapt in any given environment and pass on their genes, and those that don't and go extinct. No 'guidance' or 'creator' is observed. Obviously this does not necessarily mean gods can't exist, just that they don't meddle in physical life. In a spiritual belief system, instead of seeing such beings as *creators* perhaps it's better to view them as described in Buddhism and Jainism, as to my knowledge there they are not creators, just souls incarnating elsewhere.

By the way, the Easter Bunny is very much underrated. It is the best chocolate of the year. I do eat animals, they just have to be made out of chocolate!!!


Altair, hello there.

One more great pyramid fact...apparently the corners are 90 degree squared with only 1/4 inch max variance along the sides/angles, an architectural feat impossible by today's standards. And the fact is, there are many an varied instances of technologies existing in eras where they should not have (i.e., "out of time" or out of sync with our known historical record).

Also as to life on earth, reputable scientists have put forth panspermia (random, from outer space/collisions/asteroids, etc.) and also directed panspermia (meaning, intentionally seeding select life forms for another habitable planet. Though few scientists would say without hard evidence, it certainly could or might mean delivering the seeded/select life forms "in person". But according to many scientists, it seems infinitely more likely for life to have already have arisen elsewhere in the universe prior to arising in isolation here, which would may the likelihood of some sort of panspermia and "nurtured nature" (per Greenslade) vastly more likely as well (rather than the theory that life here on earth arose and evolved in complete isolation or wholly unaided).

So...with that said, and with all due respect, I think it's a bit harsh and dogmatic to say it must be your way, or else folks are utterly mental or fanciful or irrational. There really is no need for that IMO.

Also, just as a general aside. I have seen it many times, a deep and unspoken need to find the reason for everything existing as it does and being as it is. It is, when entrenched, likewise deeply irrational and cannot be approached with the rationality and open-mindedness necessary for all true inquiry and apprehension (meaning, to apprehend).

If we embrace the search and not the discovery of the thing (i.e, the journey and not the destination) then we can better accept what is, regardless how it may or may not reveal itself fully to us at our current level of development. And by that, I absolutely mean given our severe limitations ethically, morally, socially, communally, emotionally, and spiritually. To a lesser degree, I also mean our limited level of intellectual and physical development, which can always be enhanced variously if we don't destroy the planet.

In traditional medicine, it's as aspect of the earth element in one's constitution OR perhaps in one's culture and worldview...to value only the concrete and to disdain the intangible, broadly, and also to fix oneself to habitual things and to shun the unknown. It's an aspect of the metal element to fix oneself rigidly to beliefs or mindsets or habitual things, and to shun exchange, compromise, flexibility or open-mindedness. We all have both constitutional and cultural elements which influence and compose our nature. There are more than just these 3 constitutional and cultural elements, plus infinite combinations. It's for us to identify and work to change those areas of resistance or obstruction.

Peace & blessings
7L
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  #455  
Old 04-11-2019, 04:18 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
One more great pyramid fact...apparently the corners are 90 degree squared with only 1/4 inch max variance along the sides/angles, an architectural feat impossible by today's standards. And the fact is, there are many an varied instances of technologies existing in eras where they should not have (i.e., "out of time" or out of sync with our known historical record).
7L
The Pythagorean theorem which virtually all engineers, carpenters, etc. know in one form or another, makes it very easy to build something with perfect 90 degree angles. Combine this with laser measuring devices, unbelievable precision can be obtained.

As for "there are many an varied instances of technologies existing in eras where they should not have (i.e., "out of time" or out of sync with our known historical record)", I have not found one instance for such a claim.

As for pyramids, the early pyramids were pathetic in construction.
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  #456  
Old 04-11-2019, 04:36 PM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
The Pythagorean theorem which virtually all engineers, carpenters, etc. know in one form or another, makes it very easy to build something with perfect 90 degree angles. Combine this with laser measuring devices, unbelievable precision can be obtained.

As for "there are many an varied instances of technologies existing in eras where they should not have (i.e., "out of time" or out of sync with our known historical record)", I have not found one instance for such a claim.

As for pyramids, the early pyramids were pathetic in construction.

How about the stones of Puma Punku? I've heard some of the cuts, especially inner cuts, would be challenging even with today's technologies.

stonework-at-Puma-Punku.jpg
  #457  
Old 04-11-2019, 07:18 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Also as to life on earth, reputable scientists have put forth panspermia (random, from outer space/collisions/asteroids, etc.) and also directed panspermia (meaning, intentionally seeding select life forms for another habitable planet. Though few scientists would say without hard evidence, it certainly could or might mean delivering the seeded/select life forms "in person". But according to many scientists, it seems infinitely more likely for life to have already have arisen elsewhere in the universe prior to arising in isolation here, which would may the likelihood of some sort of panspermia and "nurtured nature" (per Greenslade) vastly more likely as well (rather than the theory that life here on earth arose and evolved in complete isolation or wholly unaided). So...with that said, and with all due respect, I think it's a bit harsh and dogmatic to say it must be your way, or else folks are utterly mental or fanciful or irrational. There really is no need for that IMO.

Hello 7L..
I am familiar with panspermia, life could have come here from another place. The same applies to water. However, there's nothing to suggest this was *intentional* so I'm afraid it doesn't really give weight to ''nurtured nature'' here. And the oldest fossils are from micro-organisms billions of years ago, from there onwards we don't need external intentional beings to explain the organisms. The journey of life on earth, the diversity of species, can be explained through evolution by natural selection. This means that adding another variable into the mix, that of a creator god or alien intervention is simply non-parsimonious.

There is a lot of baggage involved in spiritual traditions and circles, and IMO much of it is not necessary. Unfortunately there have been many quacks and sensationalist people who made big $$ out of deliberately misusing science and knowledge. I'm not new to any of this by the way. In my late teens I had a period where I enjoyed conspiracies and pseudo-sciences, I listened to Coast to Coast, and I recall many interviewees mentioning how they went to hidden civilizations within mountains, or almost had a book finished on the ''real secrets'' of Ancient Egypt. Of course, it was always sensationalist and a desire to make good money out of it. When I began to read more of that over time I saw most of it for what it was.

I'm hoping people can start asking questions and ask why x is here and y is over there. If they asked such questions concerning species, why tigers have big fur over there, and less over here, or why someone else have that colour in the Arctic or another colour elsewhere, or why biomes, cultures and languages are different or similar, etc. etc. they might understand more about life on earth and our journey.

More often than not humans add enchantment in the mix because our mind loves it. If anyone got any evidence than we can look at it, but it usually boils down to ''channelling'' and with that we can claim whatever we want. Or certain ''connections'' are non-existent upon investigation. Many of these ''New Age'' thingies cast a large shadow over spirituality IMO. You gotta bury to get the precious gems. And it [spirituality] is simpler than pop culture pretends and doesn't need ancient aliens, creator gods, dowsing sticks, and deformed skulls to be relevant, valuable, or truthful.
  #458  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:27 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
How about the stones of Puma Punku? I've heard some of the cuts, especially inner cuts, would be challenging even with today's technologies.

Attachment 2844
With a 3D cutter, the exact shapes can be cut, and if a person
wants to eliminate imperfections, they can be removed in the process.

Same technology is being used in replacing/repairing items at the Notre Dame Cathedral.
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  #459  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:35 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Luminaries
Also as to life on earth, reputable scientists have put forth panspermia (random, from outer space/collisions/asteroids, etc.) and also directed panspermia (meaning, intentionally seeding select life forms for another habitable planet. Though few scientists would say without hard evidence, it certainly could or might mean delivering the seeded/select life forms "in person". But according to many scientists, it seems infinitely more likely for life to have already have arisen elsewhere in the universe prior to arising in isolation here, which would may the likelihood of some sort of panspermia and "nurtured nature" (per Greenslade) vastly more likely as well (rather than the theory that life here on earth arose and evolved in complete isolation or wholly unaided).
If life originated elsewhere and came to this planet, did it evolved in its world or was it created?
Eventually/hopefully we will follow the trail back and find out
if life was created or evolved. You must admit, in the last century, we have learned a lot.
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        Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.
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  #460  
Old 05-11-2019, 07:18 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Penrose has a different take on the Copenhagen interpretation of collapse of the wave function. Instead of (conscious?) observation/measurement causing collapse he postulates the collapse is an objective reduction of the wave function and causes a discreet instance of consciousness, and due to quantum entanglement with the microtubules imparts or makes availabe that consciousness to the brain. The microtubule part of the hypothesis is the product of Hameroff's investigations as an anesthesiologist.

In physics the Holy Grail is a theory of everything describing the unified field which is the source of everything, all particles and forces/fields. String & M theory are mathematical attempts to crack it.

Way beyond my understanding. Microtubules? M theory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
On the spiritual side, and specifically non-dualism consciousness is at the foundation of everything.

As for consciousness being beyond physical wouldn't that be a dualist take? I guess that's one of the things about Orch OR that I find interesting because for quite a while, decades, I thought Divinity wasn't supernatural, that in fact it had to be the foundation of existence.

I would suggest that in non-dualism Being (or the Self) is at the foundation of everything. Consciousness can look outwards to personality and form or inwards to Being. When consciousness identifies with Being then consciousness sees all things as the Self. Consciousness still functions in the worlds of form but knows that there is nothing except the Self.

Peace
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