polis pagans vs. tribal pagans

Hi Heathens!

I'm not sure which traditions believe in who/what so I'm asking everyone.

In today's paganism, do you feel enough respect is paid to the ancient ways
of practicing paganism. Similar behaviours to current tribal ways, spirit channelling that doesn't just come across as a calm soppy medium but maybe makes you dance and scream odd sounds. I certainly experience this if I request it from the spirit world while smoking clean herb without tobacco and get some drum n bass on.

It's something that came to my attention recently while watching a TV documentary on a family of pagans. When I think of the historical and current understanding of tribal 'pagans' compared to civilized pagans the difference appears VAST (with full upper case!) and I wonder why this gap exists.

So.. The barbaric and creative picts, the tuatha de danna, the beautiful but dangerous alfar and the brutal Aesir gods. What are your personal opinions of historical and mythological account of these in relation to your religions.

I am unsure if I know what you're asking... Can you rephrase? My brain isn't too sharp today

Originally Posted by breath

Hi Heathens!

I'm not sure which traditions believe in who/what so I'm asking everyone.

In today's paganism, do you feel enough respect is paid to the ancient ways
of practicing paganism. Similar behaviours to current tribal ways, spirit channelling that doesn't just come across as a calm soppy medium but maybe makes you dance and scream odd sounds. I certainly experience this if I request it from the spirit world while smoking clean herb without tobacco and get some drum n bass on.

It's something that came to my attention recently while watching a TV documentary on a family of pagans. When I think of the historical and current understanding of tribal 'pagans' compared to civilized pagans the difference appears VAST (with full upper case!) and I wonder why this gap exists.

So.. The barbaric and creative picts, the tuatha de danna, the beautiful but dangerous alfar and the brutal Aesir gods. What are your personal opinions of historical and mythological account of these in relation to your religions.

If you are pointing to "practice" of or in paganism today I would think that a major contributing factor as to why it isn't like the ancients would have to do with progress. If I remember correctly much of the pagan practices and rituals were very centered on clan/community/village involvement. There aren't many community in what you call the civilized world that practices paganism. Much of the gathering of community has been transferred to the local churches and town festivals and such. There are certain branches of paganism that still gather for these types of communal rituals i.e. Druids and witch covens and so on. Many people do practice paganism in their on homes and backyards but I think much of the actual rituals and practices have in themselves become civilized to fit the parameters of societal life today. Just my thoughts on the subject...

Originally Posted by nightowl

If you are pointing to "practice" of or in paganism today I would think that a major contributing factor as to why it isn't like the ancients would have to do with progress. If I remember correctly much of the pagan practices and rituals were very centered on clan/community/village involvement. There aren't many community in what you call the civilized world that practices paganism. Much of the gathering of community has been transferred to the local churches and town festivals and such. There are certain branches of paganism that still gather for these types of communal rituals i.e. Druids and witch covens and so on. Many people do practice paganism in their on homes and backyards but I think much of the actual rituals and practices have in themselves become civilized to fit the parameters of societal life today. Just my thoughts on the subject...

Thanks! Do you feel that paganism should be dynamic and changing, and maybe we could consider businessmen as the shaman of the new world. :p.

I guess the challenge for me here is, what happened to the old spirits that would be express through by berzerkers or the celtic pagans of old who drew images of men having sex with horses. Like, christianity itself has changed god over time, most religions do - and that's where I find myself questioning it's integrity in a sense. I mean the belief in the thunder gods, the dynamic politics of the pantheons of old no longer matter to us it seems. The pagans of ancient times quite clearly feared the actions of their deities, and sometimes even switched sides to other gods who they felt would not betray their loyalty.

In this case I refer to the ancient isrealites who were pantheistic before they were invaded by babylonians.. almost instantly their stories change from the heaven of a thousand gods to one god (Elyon) becoming enraged and destroying all of the other gods and making himself the only one god. The isrealites doing this shows us that they didn't have permanent pantheons and that events on earth would effect their ways of belief.

I'd like to ask on this.
How did the pagan community react to the tsunami and earth quakes. Would you believe that it was a deity who enacting these for a reason like the old pagans would have?

I'm very sorry if you feel this disrespects pagans, but try to see me as a questioning child - because in the field of paganism that's exactly what I am.

Thanks for your input so far

imho paganism is about what you believe rather than how you practice it. People practice in a way that is right for them, that is one of the wonderful things about the pagan spirituality.

Personally I am more into quite communication rather than a more vocal or expressive method.

This is just my opinion but a lot of the more visual stuff that went on was more for clan shamans to prove they were talking to the gods. I know I am able to talk with the deities/masters/guides I talk to without anything other than a few crystals and a quiet room.

I also think that it is important to remember that historical expressions of interaction with deity are recorded through a person, who will always add their own slant on it. Just like other "scriptures" were written in a way that reflected the time, the sagas and other records (what few there area) have either been recorded by people who were very much of their time, or were actually trying to portray things in a negative way to show how barbaric the pagans were.

We don't feel the need to make sacrifices because our world isn't like it was 2000 years ago. If we were to go back to worshiping the way it was done then we would be killing slaves at worse or at the very least maiming animals. Personally I don't really think that is necessary

If people find that it is necessary to do more than i do, or feel that this is more authentic that's cool. But personally it is not for me.

Originally Posted by tilia

imho paganism is about what you believe rather than how you practice it. People practice in a way that is right for them, that is one of the wonderful things about the pagan spirituality.

Personally I am more into quite communication rather than a more vocal or expressive method.

This is just my opinion but a lot of the more visual stuff that went on was more for clan shamans to prove they were talking to the gods. I know I am able to talk with the deities/masters/guides I talk to without anything other than a few crystals and a quiet room.

I also think that it is important to remember that historical expressions of interaction with deity are recorded through a person, who will always add their own slant on it. Just like other "scriptures" were written in a way that reflected the time, the sagas and other records (what few there area) have either been recorded by people who were very much of their time, or were actually trying to portray things in a negative way to show how barbaric the pagans were.

We don't feel the need to make sacrifices because our world isn't like it was 2000 years ago. If we were to go back to worshiping the way it was done then we would be killing slaves at worse or at the very least maiming animals. Personally I don't really think that is necessary

If people find that it is necessary to do more than i do, or feel that this is more authentic that's cool. But personally it is not for me.

I was nodding my head to most of that! So I understand it. The last bit, not going to accept someone's belief in killing animals (or slaves) for sacrifices. There are some horrific rituals, burning cripples is a big one I've read about many individual tribal grops like the wu shaman of china and the african tribes. amazingly both groups did it to inspire rain, so maybe they were onto something. lol. Horrific though... There's an african tribe bruce parry once went to see who had just stopped practicing that ritual very recently.

I guess today paganism is almost completely unrelated to ancient paganism, as any growing religion probably would be. as it's nature related and nature changes, paganism will probably continue to change with nature and with man's civilization standards.

[norseman]

breath, pagan covers an extremely wide span !
Business as New World shaman ? - never on this world ! Look to what the shaman did and then look for the modern equivalent. Hint - you might like to think about Complementary Medicine for a start !

Originally Posted by norseman

breath, pagan covers an extremely wide span !
Business as New World shaman ? - never on this world ! Look to what the shaman did and then look for the modern equivalent. Hint - you might like to think about Complementary Medicine for a start !

Shaman didn't just do medicine. They were shaman because they completely understood the environment they lived in and could prosper in it and help others to prosper. That's the coincidance I made between the shaman of the wood and the business man of the city. many the entrepeneur of the city instead. The ability to know how and where to find the fruits of the city, to get the most out of the concrete jungle as possible.

ask a shaman how to survive in the forests and an entrepreneur how to survive in the cities.

see where I was coming from? lol

[norseman]

sort-of. But Business Man is in the game for personal profit with little regard for the environment, whereas shaman invoked local spirits IN the environment. I would not define "business" as an environment in the proper sense.
I follow a path which is based, in part, on European shamanism and is the Old Ways in a modern setting. It is a "grey" path, neither black or white.

Originally Posted by tilia

imho paganism is about what you believe rather than how you practice it. People practice in a way that is right for them, that is one of the wonderful things about the pagan spirituality.

This is actually the opposite of what many "pagan" religions thought. Most pre-Christian religions were orthopraxic in nature - it didn't matter if you personally thought Zeus was a purple dinosaur, as long as you gave libations and attended the state festivals to worship with everyone else.

I also think that it is important to remember that historical expressions of interaction with deity are recorded through a person, who will always add their own slant on it. Just like other "scriptures" were written in a way that reflected the time, the sagas and other records (what few there area) have either been recorded by people who were very much of their time, or were actually trying to portray things in a negative way to show how barbaric the pagans were.

Very true! But when reading myths one must keep in mind that many of them were wrote down as a direct result of a widespread oral tradition. Even if the scribes happened to be Christian (as in Iceland and Ireland). In the case of Iceland, the Christianization was minimal, so it offers a fantastic source of many myths that had survived for hundreds of years before being recorded.

We don't feel the need to make sacrifices because our world isn't like it was 2000 years ago. If we were to go back to worshiping the way it was done then we would be killing slaves at worse or at the very least maiming animals. Personally I don't really think that is necessary

I think this is a problem a lot of people have when they go back to pre-Christian religions; the notion of sacrifice and offering up something important can be unsettling... but I think it's of high importance to understand all of the aspects of why they did it. It was obviously a big event. But of course, I don't advocate sacrificing random people