Insight meditation and the Satipatthana sutta

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

But I don't have to ridicule your mind

That's a relief Is it time to get back to the topic of this thread - which is OP's personal experiences, contradictions, and the complex breath?



BT

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Your were going to give up and leave this forum after your issue last week.
Remember, I walked with you through that.

I got a real sense of you through that walk, because I listen deeply.

So today in your giving up on this thread, I notice it arise again. But why take off, why not change the way you are noticing and looking, feeling and shift yourself, like your doing right now in this moment.

:)

My response as not being a fool was only to say, I cant be fooled if I am not one. :)

Ok,

Yes I remember that very well. Now I can't comment on what you perceive to have felt.
I told you then as I am now that sometimes stopping to invest in a lost cause is the the best thing to do.
I am aware that I worded that differently by saying don't mistake my leaving for giving up.

You seem to have done just that, which to me indicates the power of words and prompts me to be more careful and precise.

My perceived(by you) giving up on this thread is because the Original Poster of this thread refuses to discuss the subject matter. In fact when he is asked to explain what he means or comes across a difference of opinion. He reports the perceived offensive posts and gets an admin to censor or silence the perceived offensive poster.

My efforts to stay on topic and get the Original Poster to come forth with his experiences has met with a reluctance to do so.
Instead It has come in small soundbites accompanied by an elaborated essay of how it's a difficult subject matter and how easily misunderstood, contradictory and unfair the perona of the Original Poster is portrait.

Over the 39 pages now that this is going on I see from my point of view very clearly how the OP sees himself,
Thanks to his interactions with you I see what kind of discussion he would prefer about this subject.

Now that is a kind of discussion I am unwilling to provide, because it is in my mind inaccurate and slightly delusional to discuss the satipatthana in that way.

That kind of discussion is better suited on a more new-agy, sunshine out of your *** kind of sub forum than it is in the buddhist section. But saying so holds a sword of damocles over my head. Like the OP not wanting to be the subject of discussion, to which he reminds us on every page at length by writing how he feels he could be perceived.

At some point I will re-cognize/re-think that which I want to discuss and the possibility of that happening here. I've come to the conclusion that that possibility has reached a 0% chance of happening.

Especially since I am from this point forth ignoring the ramblings of the OP.
So what use would there be to remain on this thread.

If I shift myself to see the OP's point of view I see a delusion that has caused me great grief years ago. I have no desire to go there again. I do get a sense of where he is coming from and whether accurate or not that is how I feel/perceive and understand it.

I did get a sense that some people may be lured into his way of understanding things and that is why I sided with BT somewhere along the way. I sense she sees through the OP's ** and tries to provide a counterpoint in balance.

Now that she's effectively been told not to respond here any more to spare the OP's feelings. And I have said my say..

I guess I'll say goodbye.

With Love
Eelco

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Mindfuness is 'to see it is as it', and I wish to talk about it more intricately from the nuances of lived experience.

First a note: the equanimity of a calm mind is required to see deeper, so may we speak together here in tones most conducive to our mutual peace of mind.

The most primal premise is your own discernment because each of us is entirely alone in the exploration and subsequent self-discovery. As we are ardent in the truth, nothing is true because 'Buddha said'. The greater the authority we mindlessly believe and obey, the less we are empowered in discernment. The wise may speak as they do, but without any authority what-so-ever, because no one can have insight for you - only you can truly realise.

If that seems true, it follows that there is no recourse at all outside of ourselves, but still we are mutually supportive having that in common - and in this way the greatest service we may afford each other is our own self-awareness, as that alone enables mutual understanding.

A poem is arising through your sharing Gem.

Buddha would be laughing
From his heavenly realms so high
Clouds all around us
He must be wondering why?
Why not you see the blue sky?
The birds? the wind? the sun?
Are you trapped little earthly beings?
He would be poking fun!
Do not take my word as gospel
Listen to yourself and let things be
The resurrection of you in this
Will notice what you see
Notice what transpires
Through the unspoken on my page
I doubt you were listening
If holding me as the sage
Holding onto every word I said
You miss the marks engraved
Deep inside yourself, little Buddha's
There will be words always, enslaved
Or perhaps words of wisdom, listening
To what my written page
Was all along deciding
As a path to show the way
No words will ever subscribe to this
When one understands me now
Not there, not anywhere, little Buddha's
But where you are and bow...

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Ok,

Yes I remember that very well. Now I can't comment on what you perceive to have felt.
I told you then as I am now that sometimes stopping to invest in a lost cause is the the best thing to do.
I am aware that I worded that differently by saying don't mistake my leaving for giving up.

You seem to have done just that, which to me indicates the power of words and prompts me to be more careful and precise.

My perceived(by you) giving up on this thread is because the Original Poster of this thread refuses to discuss the subject matter. In fact when he is asked to explain what he means or comes across a difference of opinion. He reports the perceived offensive posts and gets an admin to censor or silence the perceived offensive poster.

My efforts to stay on topic and get the Original Poster to come forth with his experiences has met with a reluctance to do so.
Instead It has come in small soundbites accompanied by an elaborated essay of how it's a difficult subject matter and how easily misunderstood, contradictory and unfair the perona of the Original Poster is portrait.

Over the 39 pages now that this is going on I see from my point of view very clearly how the OP sees himself,
Thanks to his interactions with you I see what kind of discussion he would prefer about this subject.

Now that is a kind of discussion I am unwilling to provide, because it is in my mind inaccurate and slightly delusional to discuss the satipatthana in that way.

That kind of discussion is better suited on a more new-agy, sunshine out of your *** kind of sub forum than it is in the buddhist section. But saying so holds a sword of damocles over my head. Like the OP not wanting to be the subject of discussion, to which he reminds us on every page at length by writing how he feels he could be perceived.

At some point I will re-cognize/re-think that which I want to discuss and the possibility of that happening here. I've come to the conclusion that that possibility has reached a 0% chance of happening.

Especially since I am from this point forth ignoring the ramblings of the OP.
So what use would there be to remain on this thread.

If I shift myself to see the OP's point of view I see a delusion that has caused me great grief years ago. I have no desire to go there again. I do get a sense of where he is coming from and whether accurate or not that is how I feel/perceive and understand it.

I did get a sense that some people may be lured into his way of understanding things and that is why I sided with BT somewhere along the way. I sense she sees through the OP's ** and tries to provide a counterpoint in balance.

Now that she's effectively been told not to respond here any more to spare the OP's feelings. And I have said my say..

I guess I'll say goodbye.

With Love
Eelco

Gosh your goodbyes drag out.

Get out of here if your going. Stop lingering where you don't want to be.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

You repeatedly say so, but then you never get past It starts with the breath and it's complicated after that.

As I said. People don't express any interest any I don't want to be bore. Also look at the past. I speak about breath, so Gem is only breath. I speak on equanimity, so Gem is stuck in equanimity - and there is no need for me to list the full plethora of these examples.

Where did this come from?
I am not asking you to agree or disagree with anything.
I'm asking you to explain or to tall how you utilize what is in the satipatthana in your meditation and how it influences it.

Ok I would like that, but for me it works the other way. My meditation influenced the way I assign meaning to the sutta.

I just read the first page of this thread again. Where did you infer there was no interest?

No one is talking about it, and really, look at people here are now talking about? What does this indicate about their interest to you?

I wish to talk about it, and have no interest in what people are now talking about.

From the onset you've painted the picture your words are probably going to be misinterpreted and contradictory to texts and guys in robes.
Post nr2.

Yes, that's true, and they don't sound like any monk I ever heard.

Then you never get to how and what about the meditation with regards to the satipatthana. If you did? I must have missed that post.

When we are on topic, yes I consistently refer to sutta. I have raised the woodturner several times, I have cited the book you linked numerous times, I have referenced the refrain repeatedly - etc.

I don't know. I was interested. lost it along the way though.
Not because i agree or disagree. But because you never did just said what you wanted to talk about without also saying how terribly in contradiction your words are.
Drawing attention exactly to what you didn't want to happen.

My own preference would be to start with the breath and in a carefully orderly way discuss the meditation from the gross aspects through to the subtlest aspects.

Seeing the fingers as the fingers at the point of the fingers is the point.
I get that, even that there is no point, but that the perceptions of the fingers are it's arising awareness and it's cessation.

OK, and that mind which sees in that way is necessary for this topic of conversation. That's my point.

Well great insight, But utterly meaningless without some context.
That's what I hoped we could get into a bit more.
With the sutta as a guide. However like I create a picture of you in my mind, You seem to create one likewise.

Isn't my fingers example sufficient in itself to illustrate?

No, I never said you create a picture on me in your mind. BT does, and I have mentioned that to her. Now if we look at recent pages, how often is Gem a subject. This is such a clear indication of imaginary Gems. You are also party to that, but you speak very reasonably about how that arises in yourself, so I know you have the self awareness, and as usual, serve as quite the examplar of what is 'right'.

And instead of talking we seem to assume an awful lot.
So I'll leave you to your interpretation of meditation and how it relates to the satiPatthana and your prefered whatever, Wont bother you again to explain..

I trust you are sincerely interested, and I'm pleased, because this is what I always wanted to do. In myself I am wary because, as I exampled above, it opens me to accusation derision and so on. I have to be careful because I understand my own talent for controversy, and I can easily become a leverage for general unrest. It's really nothing to with me, but because I speak without parroting texts, and there are no texts at all covering some things I say, the right/wrong mentality sets in and I know such a mind can't understand.

You see, I have already been speaking of 'what is necessary', so when I last spoke to you, I already had begun the discussion, and I was first attempting to illustrate the 'kind of mind' the conversation requires.

If you come back to me with a narrative that reflects the 'observance', then I know you understand the sort of attention this conversation requires - when the mind goes into knowledge-right/wrong-agree/disagree mode, we know of ourselves we aren't observant, but if we can be conscious that mind is doing this, then we are observant, and are back on track.

Of course I will talk about the thing making references to suttas as best I am able. You know much more than me in that regard, and I can only appreciate it if you inform me how anything I may say is reflected in one sutta or another.

Under no circstance can argumemtitive mind arise because of course such mind is far too agitated to comprehend anything.

You see I have started discussing, already right? Perhaps I don't know if any of this is paraphrased somehow in any sutta, but you might know of one, Because I talk from the experience of meditation, I say it in my way, but I will reference suttas as often as possible within the very limited scope of my knowledge of such texts.

Originally Posted by naturesflow

This speaking is the mind with unresolved emotional reactions.

But I don't have to ridicule your mind because I understand how this works as my own when I would speak this way. And as predominate feeler I understand emotions very well.

Your still hurting, but its coming out as anger, I am observing.

I use to fight to the bitter end when I was reported. My god did I act out. But then I learned all my subtle reactions and how that fitted into my mind not still and calm, emotions boiling over..all that jazz.

All I can say is that your observations are correct, though not the conclusions.
I've been around the block of on-line forums a while. This is not acting out of anger because I was reported.

It is acting out of anger stemming from sadness. Not because of the report I could care less about that. Sadness that a sutta I hold dear is misinterpreted, misunderstood and mangled in ways I find inpallatable.

With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

All I can say is that your observations are correct, though not the conclusions.
I've been around the block of on-line forums a while. This is not acting out of anger because I was reported.

It is acting out of anger stemming from sadness. Not because of the report I could care less about that. Sadness that a sutta I hold dear is misinterpreted, misunderstood and mangled in ways I find inpallatable.

With Love
Eelco

You were never once mentioned by me in conversations I participated in outside this thread.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I thought you were leaving?

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Gosh your goodbyes drag out.

Get out of here if your going. Stop lingering where you don't want to be.

Between this, and your response to catsquotl, all I can say is

Enjoy yourself, naturesflow, and all that you hold dear.

BT

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

All I can say is that your observations are correct, though not the conclusions.
I've been around the block of on-line forums a while. This is not acting out of anger because I was reported.

It is acting out of anger stemming from sadness. Not because of the report I could care less about that. Sadness that a sutta I hold dear is misinterpreted, misunderstood and mangled in ways I find inpallatable.

With Love
Eelco

I am giving you the world record for the longest goodbye. Hehe.

Sadness arises for many reasons, but if you hold onto that too tight you may never resurrect the way you would like things to be for you in all that you see as sad for you.

(by the way, you said above. I COULD CARE less about that. haha.

Be mindful of your words they can come out all mangled sometimes. Say one thing but mean another.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Between this, and your response to catsquotl, all I can say is

Enjoy yourself, naturesflow, and all that you hold dear.

BT

Why are you hugging me?

I am hugged so much in real life, I am like the whole of nature blossoming, because of this....
We have something in common.

(my little man staying with me today, asked me if I could do the tree pose both legs. We both did it!)