Dealing (or not) with 'problematic' persons

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Molearner

davidsun,

I have a very different interpretation of the cited scripture. For understanding refer to Matthew 23:4(KJV)......Jesus speaking of the Pharisees....."For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move with one of their fingers". My take: the Pharisees, in their judgementalism, observe sin and lay guilt on others without any hint or action of forgiveness on their part. To forgive is to loose the binds. Their failure to forgive others on earth prevents God from forgiving them for their sins. This is what is maddening to Jesus......people who claim authority are essentially abusing their authority and thus can only be seen as hypocrites. In a sense, their failure to forgive is a greater sin than the sins of the ones they are condemning. The others sin in ignorance but the Phairsees(experts in law and understanding) have no such excuse.

In regards to Dr. Newton and especially the respondent identified only as "subject" we have no substantiation of credentials to bestow any credibility to their dialogue.

It can certainly be noticed that this entire thread demonstrates vividly what I had earlier posted. That to resist others is to give power to them and additionally to keep persistently attempting to change one's mind will only serve to motivate them to become more deeply entrenched in whatever position they choose to espouse.

Please know that I 'see' (you might say, I understand) the logic which leads position. I do not quite 'get' how what you say in the last sentence is applicable to me, at least not here, however. I am only attempting to present 'add'itional information and perspective to others which they are free to integrate into their world-view(s) or not, as they choose.

If some or even everyone are/is then 'motivated' to become more deeply entrenched in their own views in response that's fine with me. I have served my purpose.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Molearner

davidsun,

I have a very different interpretation of the cited scripture. For understanding refer to Matthew 23:4(KJV)......Jesus speaking of the Pharisees....."For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move with one of their fingers". My take: the Pharisees, in their judgementalism, observe sin and lay guilt on others without any hint or action of forgiveness on their part. To forgive is to loose the binds. Their failure to forgive others on earth prevents God from forgiving them for their sins. This is what is maddening to Jesus......people who claim authority are essentially abusing their authority and thus can only be seen as hypocrites. In a sense, their failure to forgive is a greater sin than the sins of the ones they are condemning. The others sin in ignorance but the Phairsees(experts in law and understanding) have no such excuse.

I agree with the referenced post but not all of it and believe it or not, I find this post supports what was being said with additional information to consider. The element of forgiveness is powerful. I think forgiving may even lead to awakening and enlightenment. I just wanted to point out what "I" saw today, not 2,000 years ago. What if Jesus was being more philosophical since we cannot even know his mind or approach to it.

When I read this the voice in my head said as above below. It also talks about reality. Jesus might not be saying anything but this, think about what you're saying. Take a moment and look where it leads, it doesn't end (stop) and you don't even see that with the attitude one has. I bet he was smiling knowing that, not with what I said but he knew. He was treating us like children. And this is something I've thought about that I see applies.

It could mean, if I hate someone on earth I am "bound to" hate them in heaven. As below above. Like wise, if I pursue hate on earth I will pursue hate in heaven thinking you are good people not realizing there will be souls you think do not deserve to be there iyo.

Think about what you do and what you will do good people and do you fall into this category. Jesus is said to have spoken in parables, metaphysics was not a word yet. I see it as a thought of a person creates until one let's go of and releases it.

The idea of sin was certainly old where Jesus introduced a new paradigm sin was not what we thought it was. I both agree and disagree with the idea of what is acknowledged but you don't really have to say anything about it. Acknowledgement should not mean I have to tell you or you have to hear it which is the impression I get. It is personal and awakening is itself the true acknowledgment and enlightenment.

I don't know if truth is what resonates but this resonates with me.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Molearner

The detestable people that you mentioned in your post might have had quite different lives if they had experienced a measure of love and/or kindness at an earlier point in their lives.

Please register the fact that 'detestable' is your characterization, not mine Mo.

Also the fact that everyone must have experience some 'measure' (as you put it) of 'love' or else they couldn't/wouldn't be here. Even Hitler had a mother you know!

Originally Posted by Molearner

Whose fault was that?

Please also register the fact that 'fault' is your attribution, not mine, Mo. Jesus (whose view/judgment I concur with in this regard) said: "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh." He did not regard 'the world', or 'sinners' (i.e. 'offenders'), as being 'faulty' - he just said it 'like it is", called a spade a spade, etc., as do I, IMO.

Originally Posted by Molearner

Did someone of us fail to be their brother's keeper?

The 'Christian' world-view is: "As a man soweth, so shall be reap." There is really no such think as 'failure' in such context. Let me pointedly ask you think deeply (i.e. open-mindedly?) before your 'answer' this quesion: Do you really think it was Jesus who 'failed' as you put it to be (all of!) his brother's 'keeper' (even assuming there ever can be such a thing!) when, in response to others asking him to 'help' certain refractory (in terms of not acknowledging and living in accord with the truth) folks, he verbally related this: "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Your (idea of) Jesus is a far cry from my (idea of) Jesus, Bro-Mo!

Originally Posted by Molearner

The ministry of Jesus was not directed to those who 'deserved' a pat on the back. It was directed to those who were lacking in every way.

His ministry focused on 'sinners' who were more likely to be ready and willing to 'repent' (re-think what the truth about Spirit really is) and 'receive' the rest of his 'message' than those who 'smugly' thought their way of thinking had the truth all sewed up - such folks don't 'deserve' 'a pat on the back', no way, no how, IMO. Again, I think your (idea of) Jesus is a far cry from my (idea of) Jesus - maybe so far that you won't or can't 'hear' the truth in what I say, Bro-Mo.

Originally Posted by Molearner

It is a very tough thing and counterintuitive to 'forgive them for they know not what they do' instead of condemning and judging them for what they have done. I realize that we might be miles apart of this matter but I accept the commandment to love as being THE command whether I can do it or not.

Which suggests to me (that is I will 'bet') that you will go for 'it' your way whether you actually manage to get there (and 'do' 'it') or not is not appears to not be a significant issue for you, Bro!

I wish you well wherever your journey leads you. My only option in said regard is to tell you what I think, and that is that 'kindness' (not just kindness, at least) won't get you there. What I 'see' is that the 'blessings' in/of 'the world' (from their mothers and fathers included) have for the most part resulted in people becoming spoiled, greedily self-indulgent, petty-'dictate'-to-other-ers. From what I see, its those who learn the 'right' 'lessons' from experiencing and/or witnessnig 'the school' or 'hard knocks' who become functionally (for the 'better') LOVE and JOY augmenting 'creators', not those who been 'kept' (propped?) 'up' by others.

[davidsun]

P.S. I'll also 'bet' that anyone who shares the same world-view and value-system as Jesus couldn't help but think, and if asked say, some fairly un'kind' things upon seeing and truly registering the significance of what people have 'made' done to and continue to do to our Earthly 'hone' - i.e. the grotesquely excessive and giving of material gifts, especially in his 'name' ostensibly celebrating his 'birthday'!

Bring on the chemotherapy of climate change - that is, as soon as those souls who are in still capable of maturing mature - I say (hoping that all creature that have developed 'social intelligence' won't be completely decimated by then)! A relevant parable (I think): "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

A revelant 'popular' song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIPGyKGuWeA (Note: you have to put up with a 15 second ad - ugh or world has become a world of 'ads'! - to hear the song)

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by davidsun

This is a 'perfect' illustration of an socially hostile 'assertive' expression by an "average every-day (there are many such in my view!) Presumptuously-SELF-Aggrandizing-by-way-of-Claiming-'superior'-High-Ground-and-Putting-Others-Down-using-Smug-Holier-Than-Thou-Allusions illegitimate usurpers of the world's stage, of social 'status' space if you will, ..." (a 'group' or 'category' of people which I referenced earlier as not likely to become less violational in relation to others if 'simply' treated with 'kindness' - or so I think.

I feel sorry for you, davidsun but I appreciate the compliment nevertheless

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by happy soul

Maybe I shouldn't have used the idea of 'tough love'.

Originally Posted by davidsun

"Tough' simply indicates not 'gentle', or what is generally considered 'gentleman'ly, I think.

I thought I had said more than this in the above post, and maybe what I thought I said there was actually said in a different post which I simply can't find (again) because I have made many posts and there is so much going on this thread. Though I may just be repeating something already read, let me re-say what I had in mind anyway, just in case it I failed to hit the save button or something, or it just (magically? ) disappeared for some reason.

What I thought I said was that, besides their not correctly IMO seeing his 'love' as often being quiet 'tough', many (most?) people don't realize that Jesus 'love' was also extremely 'crafty'.

They don't understand that 'turning the other cheek' wasn't an 'act' implying 'forgiveness', for instance. It was actually meant to shame the 'smiter' by pointedly 'saying' "Go, ahead smite me again, I ain't 'backing down' from you!" This, in the context of dealing with 'police brutality' of the part of a Roman soldier where/when slapping or punching back would have just 'given' the very excuse the 'soldier' wanted to feel 'justfied' in shoving his spear in the side of the ('disobedient'-to-Ceasar) 'resistor'.

They also don't understand that giving one's 'cloak' (i.e. long knee-length shirt) which was the only other garment men generally wore under their 'coats' to a person who had sued them for and therefor 'legally' taken from them would result in their being completely naked to so, in effect, boldly flashing them in public - this, in a culture where being 'seen' naked in public was generally regarded as 'shameful' and to be avoided at all costs.

His 'craftiness' far excelled that of the soldiers, lawyers, and judges he (and other 'poor' and 'socially powerless' Jews) had to contend with, as also demonstrated by the 'cleverness' of his answer when Pontius Pilate interrogated him, pointedly asking him if he was God (or the Son of God, etc.) in order to get him to 'incriminate' himself as a 'blasphemer' -- Jesus just 'cheekily' said "Ye say that I am!" The 'tactic' didn't work though. But they nailed him anyway!

He really wasn't always the 'kind' (of) I-totally-'forgive'-you-no-matter-what-you-do-or-don't-do fella in relation to everyone which many presently like to project and 'romantically' proclaim to be an example of an 'ascended' ('above' the vicissitudes of regular existence) being. That is, not in my I-think-I-really-what-what-the-many-was-about opinion.

As I said, I may already said as much elsewhere. In that case though, this sort of thing bears repeating and rereading I think.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I feel sorry for you, davidsun but I appreciate the compliment nevertheless

As I said folks, there is no shortage of smugly condescending, other put-downing purporting to be 'highly' holy beings!

P.S. to 7L. IMO, blossimg(?)trees comment illustrates what I said about what often passes for 'lovingkindness' as really being an expression of 'pity'.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by davidsun

As I said folks, there is no shortage of smugly condescending, other put-downing purporting to be 'highly' holy beings!

Thank you david

Originally Posted by davidsun

P.S. to 7L. IMO, blossimg(?)trees comment illustrates what I said about what often passes for 'lovingkindness' as really being an expression of 'pity'.

With due respect, you don't know what passes in the mind of another (even Jesus ) - but it is true that I feel sorry for you.

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

...- but it is true that I feel sorry for you.

I don't think you should feel sorry for David BT. He obviously is very happy with how he judges and categorizes others in a way that always verifies and perpetuates his own prejudices.

This may or may not prove a difficulty for him in the future - I am not in a place to judge.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Kioma

I don't think you should feel sorry for David BT. He obviously is very happy with how he judges and categorizes others I in a way that always verifies and perpetuates his own prejudices.

This may or may not prove a difficulty for him in the future - I am not in a place to judge.

It's just a light sympathy Kioma, not active pity