The Divine Paradox

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Starman

Yes, there are other people out there like you, you just have not met them. We are closing in on eight billion people
in this world, and it seems that you refuse to believe that there are others out there like you. I have met others like
you right here in the U.S. They use the same language and descriptions that you are using in your posts to describe
themselves and others. Some have learned to live with it and some have not. I don't think we can say that there is
no one like me out there when we have not talked to everyone, all 7.5-billion people, that are out there.

Yes, I can grok that..they say each of us has a "double" out there somewhere...or more than one.

This is why my Higher Self has been at me to drive to the Shiva temple in Sydney so at least I won't feel "alone" in being enamoured of a Hindu Deity so I can possibly find some commonality in order to finally shut me up.

Failing that, I saw a group on Meetup the other night.."Techno-Shaman Psychonaut Hippies who enjoy Philosophy and playing various Middle-Eastern Percussion Instruments" - National Membership..ONE.

Well, now there is TWO.

However, I also understand that we all perceive things differently and how those who get offended whenever I say the same thing, have problems that also have nothing to do with me.

Thus, I can (and do) appreciate your viewpoint and I know you are not trying to change my mind, neither am I seeking to change yours, so it is all good.

However, that is enough from me for a few hours..my mobile phone is cursed, honestly! It cannot help itself but put the letter "b" before "in" whenever I type it, it also confuses the letters "m" and "n" and it tried to tell me that the word "rewire" was actually "desire" I had six goes at that one before it would let me change it.

Phone is like..."me very tired..switch off plz".

[ThatMan]

On one thing we can all agree, this is a place of suffering, we all suffer, and I am not only talking about humans, but about any other living creature.

This is the starting point, let's start from here.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

On one thing we can all agree, this is a place of suffering, we all suffer, and I am not only
talking about humans, but about any other living creature.

This is the starting point, let's start from here.

Actually I think the starting point is joy, we all experience joy, not only humans but all living creatures.
A new born baby experiences joy so lets start from there. Most babies know nothing about suffering;
they don't have the language to identify something as "suffering." It is not until we start to grow that
we begin to acknowledge something we call "suffering." In my opinion suffering is connected to the
struggles of intrinsic growth, and we are here to learn and grow. Growing pains usually include suffering.

[ThatMan]

Originally Posted by Starman

Actually I think the starting point is joy, we all experience joy, not only humans but all living creatures.
A new born baby experiences joy so lets start from there. Most babies know nothing about suffering;
they don't have the language to identify something as "suffering." It is not until we start to grow that
we begin to acknowledge something we call "suffering." In my opinion suffering is connected to the
struggles of intrinsic growth, and we are here to learn and grow. Growing pains usually include suffering.

To not know that you suffer it does not mean that you don't suffer, the suffering is still there, doing its work, even a baby cries when something is not ok.

I think you said it yourself, for a human being to grow, usually ( 100% ) this includes suffering, so we are back to my point of view, this is a place of suffering.Your argument is that because this is how we grow.

Happiness is not that powerful to make us to try to understand the things of the whole creation, a depressed person is spending more time thinking about the true nature of things than a normal person.Most of the time, a normal person, does not care about such things.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

To not know that you suffer it does not mean that you don't suffer, the suffering is still there, doing its work, even a baby cries when something is not ok.

I think you said it yourself, for a human being to grow, usually ( 100% ) this includes suffering, so we are back to my point of view, this is a place of suffering.Your argument is that because this is how we grow.

Happiness is not that powerful to make us to try to understand the things of the whole creation, a depressed person is spending more time thinking about the true nature of things than a normal person.Most of the time, a normal person, does not care about such things.

Growth does not have to include suffering, it only includes suffering when we are stuck, or when we resist it,
or don't know how to deal with it.

Suffering primarily comes from the challenges that humanity has built into its' societies, the various systems that
we have created and sustain, creates most of the suffering in this world.

The legal system, economic system, healthcare system, political system, and other systems create poverty
and lack in this world. People in Norway are not suffering as much as people in many other countries because
they have more efficient systems.

I have lived in many countries around the world and some countries have more happy people than other
countries, suffering is not universal; it is not innate; we are not born suffering. There are primitive tribes
in the Amazon, and elsewhere, that have nothing and they are happier than most Americans who have
a great deal.

Happiness and sadness are a choice, happiness and sadness are a matter of perspective. I have met people
who were happy to be homeless. They had no responsibilities and that is the way they wanted it. It is really not
about thinking of the true nature of things rather it is about experiencing your own deeper nature.

Within every human being, at their core, deep within their ability to feel, there is unfathomable love.
It is just that people have gotten away from their center and they rely too much on their thoughts.
It is about learning how to tune to something else that is already within us, something that is on a very
fine level. Finer than any thought could conceive. This I have experienced for myself.

People in wealthy nations live longer than people in poorer nations but generally people in wealthy
nations also commit suicide more than people in poor nations. Human life in my opinion is very beautiful
and whether we suffer or not has a lot to do with what we have learned about ourselves and how
we do our learning. It is futile to suffer too much over our suffering, and I speak from my experience
because I used to suffer a great deal.

Even so, I respect that you think life is all about suffering even though I do not currently share that
perspective.

[Shivani Devi]

Hence why I am not a Buddhist.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

To not know that you suffer it does not mean that you don't suffer, the suffering is still there, doing its work, even a baby cries when something is not ok.

I think you said it yourself, for a human being to grow, usually ( 100% ) this includes suffering, so we are back to my point of view, this is a place of suffering.Your argument is that because this is how we grow.

Happiness is not that powerful to make us to try to understand the things of the whole creation, a depressed person is spending more time thinking about the true nature of things than a normal person.Most of the time, a normal person, does not care about such things.

The thing about babies...they are helpless creatures...fully relying on another to fulfil their basic "baby needs" because, if they could change their poopy diaper themselves, they no doubt would.

They also cannot talk to say "oy mum, can I haz tit nao because hungry!"

*.. and of course I know what a meme is* =)

So they cry....and that is the only way they gonna get a caregiver to come running asap, if not sooner. They may not even be suffering all that much, unless they got colic, or a cold or somesuch.

After they reach a certain age.. between 6-16, they realise that if they want ANYTHING, they gotta do it for themselves or find it within themselves...and if they can't, they learn how to innovate and improvise and this is also how genius gets born...with necessity being the 'mother of invention' and all that.

There is a harsh lesson about suffering and the reason for it and it is one that most people do not like to hear, least of all myself...but it is the God-given TRUTH and it is one of those universal Truths.

The reason why people suffer is because they are not living up to their highest/fullest potential which is available to them at any given "now moment".

People often KNOW what to do to stop their suffering...to heal themselves of anything! and they know it instinctively..better than any doctor or shrink, or even their parents...but will they do it? Well, that all depends on how much effort is involved and how far out of their comfort zone they need to travel to STOP their suffering.

For example, I am here right now suffering from a gall bladder attack...which is not a pretty sight..I get it a few times a year.

I KNOW how to do a gall bladder flush, but I really cannot stand the taste and texture of Epsom Salts..which is a key factor in the flush, so I am not doing it. However, I realise that if I "bite the bullet",I could be totally symptom free for at least another year...pain and suffering vs Epsom Salts...tough choice.

Some have very painful arthritis...they suffer badly, but won't do any exercise because it hurts too much..not even swimming or low impact exercise and they don't like fish oil tablets or glucosamine powder and turmeric with black pepper gives them heartburn..they PREFER to suffer with arthritis which will only degenerate, because they don't like what the alternative involves which will STOP their suffering.

....and this, my friends, is the reason why people suffer.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

On one thing we can all agree, this is a place of suffering, we all suffer, and I am not only talking about humans, but about any other living creature.

This is the starting point, let's start from here.

Life is a place of everything.

The many life experiences and creations can be viewed through any stream and it’s only where your looking and creating that you perceive it this way.

Beliefs of course create and dissect the world into reasons, as to what life means and why we are here.

A person without beliefs often sees life as life is. A person not entertained by spiritual ideas will look at life as their life is.

Pain and suffering exist, along with no pain and no suffering. People experience various emotions, have enjoyable happy lives, have miserable lives. People have choice, people don’t have choice. People are upbeat and optimistic, some are depressed and disheartened.

Life is not one thing. Life itself, is proof of that.

So for you to say life is a place of suffering, yes it is, no it isn’t.

Hello Shivani,

I really admire your openness and what you project in this world.

But I have difficulty understanding what you define as yourself.

It's maybe my French that does not allow me to catch all the subtleties in English or maybe that you are everchanging? Don't know...

Regards

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Legrand

Hello Shivani,

I really admire your openness and what you project in this world.

But I have difficulty understanding what you define as yourself.

It's maybe my French that does not allow me to catch all the subtleties in English or maybe that you are everchanging? Don't know...

Regards

Thank you for your comments.

If I could find the right "labels" to use that explains to another person how I define myself, I would.

All I know, is that I exist in a totally different dimension to the one where most people are at and this is why I am rarely understood - even by those who speak perfect English (like myself) so your French background has nothing to do with it.

The whole problem exists within the "channels of communication" and not the language spoken or what is actually said.

For some (and not anyone in particular) the "Doors of Perception" (I am a huge Aldous Huxley and William James fan) are closed, locked and deadbolted shut...so, one can knock all they want, but they will either get no answer or "go away - nobody is home".

It is time now that I join Jonesboy's forum...I am ready.