Buddhism as a practice.

[Bohdiyana]

To me, any form of "meditation" in which I am present as some kind of person doing something is not a form of "meditation I would do or be attracted to as an activity. Meditation to me is a "personless" experience so it involves the absence of a doer or "person" who's form is both the interpreter/judger of now and a "me" that projects a response/solution to whatever was determined as the interpreter/judger of now. So meditation to me is just the lack of this person and his or her processes and intrusion into what is an empty and perfect experience of now.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by Bohdiyana

..Meditation to me is a "personless" experience so it involves the absence of a doer or "person" who's ... So meditation to me is just the lack of this person and his or her processes and intrusion into what is an empty and perfect experience of now.

if this is so then watch out for any intention to meditate, because if there is any intention involved then this cannot lack a person.
Without person meditation is spontaneously present.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Thankyou. I have the awareness more clear now, this is really transforming my own meditation practice into something new.

Great, and I know it isn't because I said do this or do that as in 'how to meditate', but rather, you recognised the signs of 'what it is' to meditate in what I was saying. The 'realisations' came in self-understanding - not because I said so, but because you recognise it yourself in your unique way. You know why you do it, and how to do it, because you know 'what it is' as your inner knowingness. Not because you believe me as an authority. I tell everyone clearly, I'm not an authority, and people would be mad to believe me... if it is 'discovered within' as part of the conversation - that's your knowing in your way - not my knowing in my way. Never believe anyone, I say. Don't take anyone as an authority and believe them. You are a human being, and perfectly capable in truth.

This is a subtle thing, and it's complicated as an understanding, very nuanced - the kind of knowing which is 'realised' rather than learned, because there is no way of telling someone this thing. I don't know what this thing is either, and it's always the exploration for me. The noticing which it is, is only ever present - it is never remembered, just like love will never die to become something which one knows.

There is a changing flow in this relation, and no fixed positions in it, and this where we open up, as I know I have become more open toward you over time, and it is that, both in ourselves and between people which allows the universal love to rise in our own hearts, and express as metta in the world - not so much I want you to be happy, so I'll try to make you happy, but radiate with truthful nature in the greater good for the lasting contentment of all beings.

It is because you are open that I am open in saying.

I have a good friend who leads meditation classes, I believe, she would love to read this and put this into practice with her classes, so I am going to share it with her, then she can lead me and others on those days I attend those group sessions to become more conscious of this way.

It's likely she already knows 'how to meditate' which means she won't click on the 'what it is to meditate' level, but it might be worth talking to her about it... not to influence her own classes, though.

(lots of fidgeting and movement with people during the one hour class and only a select few (me included) will sit upright, others want to lay down most often, this could support this in a new way and with new awareness as to what it can support in us all )

Yes, it is probably quite a casual class, rather than a class filled with very diligent and earnest folk, so few will go that 'extra mile', as most are only looking for something comforting and pleasant. What we've been talking about is really complicated and nuanced, so it is a lengthy conversation and not something which comes across in just a few words.

The stillness of the body is crucial to it, but for people starting out it's not realistic. Also, it's only in this particular approach. I've sat with very experienced meditators of various practices who have experienced already amazing spiritual things, but when it comes to 'stop and look', they experience all the agitations and squirming of any first day novice. I recall one fellow very clearly who sat perfectly in full lotus and obviously has done a lot meditation before, but he became agitated and wriggly in a short space of time. They have been practicing methods to bring about some sort of special experience, and been satisfied, and thought they were progressing, when a 'spiritual experience' happened. Practicing desire. That will get you what you want--- but it's still the dynamic of chasing pleasures and avoiding life's pains. It works to a certain end, and has untold benefits, so I'm not going against any of it at all, but it won't actually reveal to you 'your truth'. What I'm talking about will reveal so much, as you already noticed in what it already reveal in yourself. I realise things as well, even though I'm the dominant speaker right now, I realise out of my own voice, just as much as anyone else might. It's not a conclusion I drew in the past and recant in the present... it's 'in touch' with me as the process itself. It is the purification in the 'real lived truth'. And to quote J Krishnamurti: "the truth is what liberates you, not your efforts to be free".

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Bohdiyana

To me, any form of "meditation" in which I am present as some kind of person doing something is not a form of "meditation I would do or be attracted to as an activity. Meditation to me is a "personless" experience so it involves the absence of a doer or "person" who's form is both the interpreter/judger of now and a "me" that projects a response/solution to whatever was determined as the interpreter/judger of now. So meditation to me is just the lack of this person and his or her processes and intrusion into what is an empty and perfect experience of now.

The rhetoric is in the practice context because the thread is on practice, but the narrative isn't really saying do a practice. The issue is actually what people are already practicing, and my narrative here has been to do with becoming aware of what one practices already in their life.

Because every bloke and his dog talk about breath meditation as 'focus on your breath', as soon as people hear 'breath meditation' they already 'know' it means 'focus on your breath'.

This narrative is not that. This narrative does have a practice entwined in it, but the discourse is very broad, because this thing which is 'stop and look' is basically 'stop' because looking is what is already happening. In this sense, 'stopping and looking' is an ideal, but it's much more likely that it will reveal to you the sheer quantity of what you actually are practicing in your life. One example I gave is, suppose you have stopped to look, but then an itch comes up on your face... I don't mean to be presumptuous, but let's say hypothetically that you start reacting to that. If you resolve to leave it there rather than scratch it, it's likely your mind will start going nuts. Then one may realise, this is what I have been doing in life, with every mild discomfort I start going nuts. Then afterward, one may notice this tendency recur over and over several times a day with all the little things that feel bad, and one will realise, farout, I never realised how easily irritated I get. Well, now you know how often you are already practicing irritation. Just an example.

[Bohdiyana]

Originally Posted by Ground

if this is so then watch out for any intention to meditate, because if there is any intention involved then this cannot lack a person.
Without person meditation is spontaneously present.

Nicely put. Yea to me that's what I have associated with the word "meditation" with. (present without the "person" with it's agenda - freedom from a particular kind of "self") Very few define "meditation" as that though. I would assume most use the term to mean "me" doing some practice to change the experience "I" have or to conceptually change my nature, what I am, through time. It doesn't bother me that others walk around with a different use and meaning of the word though. I figure we all have the reality we choose so I would not want to limit somebody's freedom to chose to think of themselves as, and operate as, a "person" who is on some kind of linear time based path somewhere where change is still valued (for themselves, the person).

[Bohdiyana]

Originally Posted by Gem

the thread is on practice, ... breath meditation as 'focus on your breath',

This narrative is not that. This narrative does have a practice entwined in it, but the discourse is very broad, because this thing which is 'stop and look' is basically 'stop' because looking is what is already happening.

Seems to me the "highest" practice is, as I think you are saying, something that has no beginning and no end, though it comes and goes. Most on a spiritual path have the same longing or desire to reach this thing others have spoken of, but then how we make sense of that in our own lives is up to us. We have to figure it out and apply it in our lives and experience. So to me, it is a constant thread (idea?) that now runs though my life as I seek this thing. What this "thing" or "practice" turns out to be for me is related to how I have got a taste of the peace and bliss that can occur when I let go in the right way of the right things, and one aspect of that is letting go of the things in my own mind which includes all ideas there, to a degree lol. It's an idea that I can let go of my ideas.... right?

I've thought about this stuff a lot and tried to come up with ways to express or explain it and I'd say I've pretty much failed. Sometimes what we say comes close and seems to be true but a lot is missing and whatever we say can be completely misinterpreted by a reader of it. I know a word like "idea" is completely simplifying some phenomenon which is very deep and complex. I know "ideas" or "knowledge" exists on several different levels in us, in different locations, as different physical/energy "stuff" and in fact, can come from different sources.

So yea those "facts" pretty much rules out being able to explain what it is I, or you I would guess, am talking about in any real sense. But I will say, like how different people define and use that word "meditation" differently, it is the same with the word "enlightenment." I've come to see that word as a particular action or state of consciousness that in no way is related to, or associated with, any achievement or level of advancement. In other words, in my current understanding of things, one can be "enlightened' and a spiritual beginner as well as "enlightened" and be a master Bodhisattva or something. To me "enlightenment" is seeing properly, being in the correct state, centered in being and not person-hood, but from there many different levels or depths can be present.

But then in a lot of this "spiritual philosophy" or religious dogma, there seems to be this ignoring of the fact we have merged with a human body which we will not always be merged with. Also "ignored" is how much this merging can influence or not influence our experience. For example, some karmically are born into bodies with brains that are prone to depression because of actual chemical imbalances in the brain between dopamine etc so it is not some ailment one cures with counseling or some kind of understanding. It is a real physical effect with its resulting experience and it is just what that self chose for one lifetime for karmic or learning reasons.

So a lot is involved in this and it is never a one size fits all or how everyone can get "fixed" by the same spiritual path or practice. We all have different reasons for being here in a human body, different things we came to experience or learn, different goals and desired outcomes. Trying to explain things is not really a good idea, though I just did it for 4 paragraphs, but as a "practice" I would not recommend it lol.

Like I posted before recently, all of these "spiritual" words and beliefs go away in a sense when one is being present and free from one's conditioning, so then where is "enlightenment" or "meditation?" Gone. There is only the now and it takes on this mysterious and expansive, somewhat dream like feel, if one is lucky to have gone deeply into it and really from some experiences I have had, there are some profound levels one can get to that are beyond words as the source itself can be experienced in some sense. All of this is always here, we just cover it up by our doing.

[jonesboy]

As far as people being different, I thought this might help.


In actual daily practice, not only do the things described in
books on meditation take place, an infinite number of
diverse individual experiences can occur. In order to be able
to identify the problem and give advice you have to know
how to enter into the (other person's) experience. In other
words, say a student asks me a very complicated question; in
order to be able to help her it is not enough to remember
my teacher's words or to consult a book, instead I must enter
the state of the person asking the question. I must be able to
"go and see", to feel the experience (of her state) . By asking
me the question the student is already describing or showing
me her state; only in this way can I find the way to help her.
Even though each individual perceives him or herself in a
way that appears to be different, in reality the condition of
people is more or less the same.

Only someone who has true experience of practice is able to discover this
condition, and this is the only base for helping others; and
it is also the most effective way to examine oneself.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Bohdiyana

Seems to me the "highest" practice is, as I think you are saying, something that has no beginning and no end,

Indeed.

though it comes and goes. Most on a spiritual path have the same longing or desire to reach this thing others have spoken of,

Yes, that's true.

but then how we make sense of that in our own lives is up to us.

I would be saying meditation itself is free of desires, but may acknowledge desires should they be there.

We have to figure it out and apply it in our lives and experience. So to me, it is a constant thread (idea?) that now runs though my life as I seek this thing. What this "thing" or "practice" turns out to be for me is related to how I have got a taste of the peace and bliss that can occur when I let go in the right way of the right things, and one aspect of that is letting go of the things in my own mind which includes all ideas there, to a degree lol. It's an idea that I can let go of my ideas.... right?

Yes, it's a thought about letting go of thoughts, and you can notice it for what it is as it arises. The peace and bliss coming through the lifeform as a consequence of it being purified, and the purification is only a consequence of 'the practice'. If the practice is to get these things, then a person will inevitably employ the volition to get them, as 'volition' is the 'tanha' of aversions and desires. To 'stop and look' concerns only the experience 'as it is' now. No trying to change anything, not trying to make something happen, not pining after a 'special experience' - just watching.

I've thought about this stuff a lot and tried to come up with ways to express or explain it and I'd say I've pretty much failed. Sometimes what we say comes close and seems to be true but a lot is missing and whatever we say can be completely misinterpreted by a reader of it.

Well, readers typically have an argument going on in their minds because they want to be right, so they don't really listen. I have read your stuff on other threads and am nodding like, saddu, saddu. Even the comment about the futility of practice is me going saddu saddu, because we unsually consider a practice as 'how to meditate'. The narrative I've been churning out is the breath practice, not because I want people to do it, but because NF mentioned the way of her yoga mindfulness. Then it isn't 'how to practice breath awareness'. This narrative was more about 'what it is to meditate' and from that 'knowing', NF, for example understands breath practice not in terms of 'how to do it', but 'what it is'. I just say, if a person knows 'what it is to meditate' they automatically know how to. This many not involve a breath observation, but I suggest breath awareness is an excellent way - which is my personal bias.

I know a word like "idea" is completely simplifying some phenomenon which is very deep and complex. I know "ideas" or "knowledge" exists on several different levels in us, in different locations, as different physical/energy "stuff" and in fact, can come from different sources.

That's cool, I already know this is only a conversation in the realm of ideas, but being a spiritual conversation, one would hope it inspires in realisation.

So yea those "facts" pretty much rules out being able to explain what it is I, or you I would guess, am talking about in any real sense. But I will say, like how different people define and use that word "meditation" differently, it is the same with the word "enlightenment."

Good point. These have become nuisance terms. With 'meditation' - its become a very popular thing, so everyone already has a good idea 'what it is'. If explored closely, though, most of these ideas are not accurate representations, and because anyone can pipe up and say "imma run a meditation group", most of what's out there is not particularly serious and it's taken as some sort of idle pleasure, or a way to get pleasure. That's what is being sold, "you can have special experiences that I have". It's temptation and desire and craving, and I don;t regard it as 'right'. That's why I'm like, saddu saddu, when you say no practice. I'm also saying there is no practice in the sense of 'how to'...

I've come to see that word as a particular action or state of consciousness that in no way is related to, or associated with, any achievement or level of advancement. In other words, in my current understanding of things, one can be "enlightened' and a spiritual beginner as well as "enlightened" and be a master Bodhisattva or something.

Totally.

To me "enlightenment" is seeing properly, being in the correct state, centered in being and not person-hood, but from there many different levels or depths can be present.

Personally I don;t really get into 'what is enlightenment' and I say the true state of consciousness is you just as you are now. That's why we 'stop and look' rather than trying to 'become' enlightened.

But then in a lot of this "spiritual philosophy" or religious dogma, there seems to be this ignoring of the fact we have merged with a human body which we will not always be merged with. Also "ignored" is how much this merging can influence or not influence our experience.

Absolutely.

For example, some karmically are born into bodies with brains that are prone to depression because of actual chemical imbalances in the brain between dopamine etc so it is not some ailment one cures with counseling or some kind of understanding. It is a real physical effect with its resulting experience and it is just what that self chose for one lifetime for karmic or learning reasons.

Yes, good example.

So a lot is involved in this and it is never a one size fits all or how everyone can get "fixed" by the same spiritual path or practice.

Indeed, 'fixing' isn't part of this.

We all have different reasons for being here in a human body, different things we came to experience or learn, different goals and desired outcomes. Trying to explain things is not really a good idea, though I just did it for 4 paragraphs, but as a "practice" I would not recommend it lol.

I think we have to remember that this is a conversation - NOT a dissertation. I mean, there will be dominant speakers, like you are the dominant speaker now, but there's no one dominant speaker, as who is speaker and who is listener is in the flux of the conversation.

Like I posted before recently, all of these "spiritual" words and beliefs go away in a sense when one is being present and free from one's conditioning, so then where is "enlightenment" or "meditation?" Gone. There is only the now and it takes on this mysterious and expansive, somewhat dream like feel, if one is lucky to have gone deeply into it and really from some experiences I have had, there are some profound levels one can get to that are beyond words as the source itself can be experienced in some sense. All of this is always here, we just cover it up by our doing.

Well said, so it's really about the un-doing, rather than the doing of something else. This, however isn't an effort not to do - like a doing of un-doing, which is oxymorinic, but it gets past that to the volition behind it.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Great, and I know it isn't because I said do this or do that as in 'how to meditate', but rather, you recognised the signs of 'what it is' to meditate in what I was saying. The 'realisations' came in self-understanding - not because I said so, but because you recognise it yourself in your unique way. You know why you do it, and how to do it, because you know 'what it is' as your inner knowingness. Not because you believe me as an authority. I tell everyone clearly, I'm not an authority, and people would be mad to believe me... if it is 'discovered within' as part of the conversation - that's your knowing in your way - not my knowing in my way. Never believe anyone, I say. Don't take anyone as an authority and believe them. You are a human being, and perfectly capable in truth.

Nope your not my authority. Being open and unattached in myself or you in this way, means I naturally let what is there to open and move in me without any notions of you as the maker/doer/ experiencer making my experience be. My experience will be as I need for myself in all the offering. I form my own awareness and understanding in myself for me as my own experience. I allow what moves from there to be whatever it becomes. I decide in the end what I need. So don't worry about me thinking your an authority, I don't even think about you or another as that, when I am listening and self reflecting through the offering. It doesn't enter "my head" :).. Its good to emphasize this point all the same, because sometimes, you do see it entertained in such threads as Buddhism threads. As in who can be the "best authority" so you find the throwing around of facts and knowledge in this way. If one is truly open to what is there more as the experience or practice however you wish to notice this, then most naturally you can move and be self reflective as you and your own experience, aside from that.

This is a subtle thing, and it's complicated as an understanding, very nuanced - the kind of knowing which is 'realised' rather than learned, because there is no way of telling someone this thing. I don't know what this thing is either, and it's always the exploration for me. The noticing which it is, is only ever present - it is never remembered, just like love will never die to become something which one knows.

I notice as my own subtle arising that knows and feels a "resonation" in feeling and awareness of that external offering. I relate and sense that I am able to find something in another's experience that supports me in some way. The realization of that forms a greater realization through the whole experience of myself moving as that. So really the subtle nuanced awareness is simply a nudge in me, a movement, relating to me, "that makes sense" or "I am remembering" something I am now "aware of", it connects in me in some way for my own process or realization. In one's true essence or true nature, that clarity of being, understands more readily when you are listening from there, outwardly towards others in theirs, it can signal a more "direct awareness" most naturally.

There is a changing flow in this relation, and no fixed positions in it, and this where we open up, as I know I have become more open toward you over time, and it is that, both in ourselves and between people which allows the universal love to rise in our own hearts, and express as metta in the world - not so much I want you to be happy, so I'll try to make you happy, but radiate with truthful nature in the greater good for the lasting contentment of all beings.

Exactly "without bounds" in self you can still determine and discern for yourself what is "right" for you, so in some ways being open doesn't mean your open to everything outside yourself, but your open to everything in yourself to discern and share from that presence most naturally. If you are open it can be felt most naturally in the sharing, more clear or otherwise. That subtle nuanced feeling or sense, knows itself first and foremost, the extension of you as that, moves as you are in this way. It is felt. There is an open clear intent in the whole sharing, that isn't attached or holding onto what it all means. It just is. I don't have to name the intention, I understand the intention as my own truthful nature, I know myself more true and open, because I know what not being open and true feels like.

It is because you are open that I am open in saying.

It's likely she already knows 'how to meditate' which means she won't click on the 'what it is to meditate' level, but it might be worth talking to her about it... not to influence her own classes, though.

Yes. She is self aware and reflects through offerings much like myself, the shared space will be what it needs to be for her. My mention was more, I sense she herself will gain something for herself as I have in this sharing. We have an open shared connection that shares everything we move through and what is in seeking to be realized before it occurs. So naturally sensing a tool of awareness can support that process deeper as a practice. What she "opens to in herself" then reflects back to the group as she sees can be supportive to that space and individuals as one.

Yes, it is probably quite a casual class, rather than a class filled with very diligent and earnest folk, so few will go that 'extra mile', as most are only looking for something comforting and pleasant. What we've been talking about is really complicated and nuanced, so it is a lengthy conversation and not something which comes across in just a few words.

It is a casual class, but with regular's. We have a few who have spent a great deal of time at the Buddhist centre here, involved with the teachings and meditation classes, at the centre, inclusive of my friend who runs it, so most are very open and very aware of themselves. I have a feeling it would be accepted as a really valuable piece to the practice already in place in most to bring about a deeper experience most naturally for them. The thing with most groups, if your aware of each person as they are (which my friend is) you naturally discern and know how to guide a meditation practice to suit the whole.

The stillness of the body is crucial to it, but for people starting out it's not realistic. Also, it's only in this particular approach. I've sat with very experienced meditators of various practices who have experienced already amazing spiritual things, but when it comes to 'stop and look', they experience all the agitations and squirming of any first day novice. I recall one fellow very clearly who sat perfectly in full lotus and obviously has done a lot meditation before, but he became agitated and wriggly in a short space of time. They have been practicing methods to bring about some sort of special experience, and been satisfied, and thought they were progressing, when a 'spiritual experience' happened. Practicing desire. That will get you what you want--- but it's still the dynamic of chasing pleasures and avoiding life's pains. It works to a certain end, and has untold benefits, so I'm not going against any of it at all, but it won't actually reveal to you 'your truth'. What I'm talking about will reveal so much, as you already noticed in what it already reveal in yourself. I realise things as well, even though I'm the dominant speaker right now, I realise out of my own voice, just as much as anyone else might. It's not a conclusion I drew in the past and recant in the present... it's 'in touch' with me as the process itself. It is the purification in the 'real lived truth'. And to quote J Krishnamurti: "the truth is what liberates you, not your efforts to be free".

I understand completely. The group is very reflective on the whole experience that unfolds of itself, so its not just seeking to attain "special experiences". These are very real people, moving and growing through the reality of their day to day lives and histories, very self reflective and understanding of their own paths. Each one very aware in this way. So if anything that "truth" is already happening just by each one being open to notice more as I see it, they are already self aware.You have touched upon "openness" today and I think that is a very important aspect of noticing not only yourself, but the awareness of others. I mentioned my friend as I know her very well and know where she is at in herself right now. This will support her and myself as a shared offering. We kind of journey together through these openings and offerings. Once she "gets these things" if she needs them,often it reflects back to her leadership of meditation class anyway in some form, that she seems to naturally discern and know how to bring into the shared space, which is a good thing as I see it. Becoming the realization, you wish to see and modelling that as yourself. And naturally we all benefit as we need in that shared space through that offering, open and not attached to itself, just being itself naturally. :)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Nope your not my authority. Being open and unattached in myself or you in this way, means I naturally let what is there to open and move in me without any notions of you as the maker/doer/ experiencer making my experience be. My experience will be as I need for myself in all the offering. I form my own awareness and understanding in myself for me as my own experience. I allow what moves from there to be whatever it becomes. I decide in the end what I need. So don't worry about me thinking your an authority, I don't even think about you or another as that, when I am listening and self reflecting through the offering. It doesn't enter "my head" :).. Its good to emphasize this point all the same, because sometimes, you do see it entertained in such threads as Buddhism threads. As in who can be the "best authority" so you find the throwing around of facts and knowledge in this way. If one is truly open to what is there more as the experience or practice however you wish to notice this, then most naturally you can move and be self reflective as you and your own experience, aside from that.

Ok sounds good, because I am self conscious due to it being a common thing in 'spiritual community' for a master or guru or teacher or something to take the 'all knowing' role, and there's no way I want to be, or should be, taken anything like that. But I know you wouldn't, and because you do not cast an illusion of my assessed position on a spiritual ladder, I feel ok about saying all this stuff.

I notice as my own subtle arising that knows and feels a "resonation" in feeling and awareness of that external offering. I relate and sense that I am able to find something in another's experience that supports me in some way. The realization of that forms a greater realization through the whole experience of myself moving as that. So really the subtle nuanced awareness is simply a nudge in me, a movement, relating to me, "that makes sense" or "I am remembering" something I am now "aware of", it connects in me in some way for my own process or realization. In one's true essence or true nature, that clarity of being, understands more readily when you are listening from there, outwardly towards others in theirs, it can signal a more "direct awareness" most naturally.

That's refreshing, because it is exactly what I try to bring about in my own threads - that communion which is implied by the word 'communication'. The expert approach, the trying to help approach, the teacher/student structure can't possibly bring it it about because there are always tensions between positions and agendas behind the intents.

Exactly "without bounds" in self you can still determine and discern for yourself what is "right" for you, so in some ways being open doesn't mean your open to everything outside yourself, but your open to everything in yourself to discern and share from that presence most naturally. If you are open it can be felt most naturally in the sharing, more clear or otherwise. That subtle nuanced feeling or sense, knows itself first and foremost, the extension of you as that, moves as you are in this way. It is felt. There is an open clear intent in the whole sharing, that isn't attached or holding onto what it all means. It just is. I don't have to name the intention, I understand the intention as my own truthful nature, I know myself more true and open, because I know what not being open and true feels like.

Yes - well said.

Yes. She is self aware and reflects through offerings much like myself, the shared space will be what it needs to be for her. My mention was more, I sense she herself will gain something for herself as I have in this sharing. We have an open shared connection that shares everything we move through and what is in seeking to be realized before it occurs. So naturally sensing a tool of awareness can support that process deeper as a practice. What she "opens to in herself" then reflects back to the group as she sees can be supportive to that space and individuals as one.

I guess... what I usually say is the discourse goes with the practice. I only talk about breath awareness when it comes to a method or technique because going passed that involves a deeper level of things, which require a bit more care.

It is a casual class, but with regular's. We have a few who have spent a great deal of time at the Buddhist centre here, involved with the teachings and meditation classes, at the centre, inclusive of my friend who runs it, so most are very open and very aware of themselves. I have a feeling it would be accepted as a really valuable piece to the practice already in place in most to bring about a deeper experience most naturally for them. The thing with most groups, if your aware of each person as they are (which my friend is) you naturally discern and know how to guide a meditation practice to suit the whole.

Cool. I think what I say is very similar to the Buddhist mindfulness, which is what my formal meditation training is based on (satipatthana sutta).

I understand completely. The group is very reflective on the whole experience that unfolds of itself, so its not just seeking to attain "special experiences". These are very real people, moving and growing through the reality of their day to day lives and histories, very self reflective and understanding of their own paths. Each one very aware in this way. So if anything that "truth" is already happening just by each one being open to notice more as I see it, they are already self aware.You have touched upon "openness" today and I think that is a very important aspect of noticing not only yourself, but the awareness of others. I mentioned my friend as I know her very well and know where she is at in herself right now. This will support her and myself as a shared offering. We kind of journey together through these openings and offerings. Once she "gets these things" if she needs them,often it reflects back to her leadership of meditation class anyway in some form, that she seems to naturally discern and know how to bring into the shared space, which is a good thing as I see it. Becoming the realization, you wish to see and modelling that as yourself. And naturally we all benefit as we need in that shared space through that offering, open and not attached to itself, just being itself naturally. :)

Well, of course it would be great if the things I do and say effectively benefit people, and my greatest aim for this life is that world is somehow improved from me having lived in it. I don't know what to do, but I do believe that my impulsion to benefit rather than harm will transpire somehow through the law of attraction.