No God

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You are creating dangers where there are none. Wants and desires will not get one to achieve a state of being, bliss or anything else.

If you are doing special breathing or visualization you are not doing mindfulness.

Energy practices can help speed things up when the student is ready for them. Or they can aid in preparing the mind for meditation. Neither is a bad thing.





You should be observing within yourself. How you attach to a thought, an emotion and you let the emotional upset flow through non-attaching. It isn't just observe the world and then investigate what mental thought arouse and why?




Your practice is to notice how things feel, like typing at a very subtle level. If that is all you are doing you are missing a lot.

Also, to truly get to equanimity and not be bothered by sensations is at the 4th jnana. If you haven't experienced bliss as we have discussed earlier you haven't realized the 4th jnana. At that point it is just a mental game and not a realization.





Of course it is. But you should admit that you don't practice Buddhism or believe in the meditation practices except for what you accept and how you interrupt them.



Not really Gem. You are talking about what you touch because that is real, something you can see it and feel it. Anything beyond that you don't believe.

It is just another thought to say thoughts are imaginary and to try to disregard them. That is not the Buddhist way. What is saying they are imaginary? What is then investigating their origin, the cause?

Another thought of course but one you like.




If honesty is essential then why not say what lineage you learned from and that you don't believe in most of Buddhism.

What you do is simple, it is a starting point to the practice. I respect how much you try Gem, I really do, but I think you have created a box for yourself.

Let's look at the practice of mindfulness in and out of practice shall we? (From a lived experience)

How do we get to mindfulness in meditation?

Let's start with the breath. You focus on the breath, the air leaving the nose or the rise and fall of the belly. It is a object of focus. As one focuses on the breath they develop silence. The goal at this stage is not to solely focus on the breath no matter what else is happening. To have an intense concentration on the feeling of the breath.

It is to realize that silence, to reside in that silence. When the mind starts to wonder, when you get lost in visuals you return back to the breath as a point of focus, realize the silence again. You do this over and over again.

Over time the silence gets more and more powerful and comes quicker and quicker. You may only have to focus on the breath for a moment before you are deep in silence. Once this is solid one can then observe what arises in the mind. One will notice thoughts floating by without being caught up in them. They are able to observe their thoughts non attaching. That space to observe is the silence one has realized.

This here is the stage I asked you about, what comes next?

As one is observing their thoughts, deeper thoughts is what is observing the arising of thoughts that are passing through. You are noticing the thoughts, it is a thought that is making you notice what is arising. Here is a thought, this is passing through. Your mind is focusing on "that" whatever "that" is. The next step is to be like the Sky. To be in awareness and to let whatever arises in the mind arise without the mind even noticing, without it focusing on what arises.

This was the goal of MahaMudra that I had an empowerment in. When you can achieve this. It will rock your world. It is extremely powerful.

You will notice there is no special breathing, visualizations, desiring of special states of being. Just a refinement of the practice.

That is mindfulness while one is in meditation. Mindfulness in daily life one should still be able to observe ones thoughts and feelings just like in the meditation above. If you wish I can talk about mindfulness in daily life as well.

Tell us how it rocked your world when you became like the sky? How was it powerful for you?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Tell us how it rocked your world when you became like the sky? How was it powerful for you?

It was like being hit with a bolt of lightning. Pure white and then I was gone.

No details beyond coming back to myself and the power of it lasting for days.

Looking back it was samadhi. It’s been a few years since it happened and not soon after I stopped doing a sitting meditation practice.

If nothing else just remember the Buddhist teachings of be like the sky. If your attention is drawn to the passing clouds you are not like the sky.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You are creating dangers where there are none. Wants and desires will not get one to achieve a state of being, bliss or anything else.

If you are doing special breathing or visualization you are not doing mindfulness.

Energy practices can help speed things up when the student is ready for them. Or they can aid in preparing the mind for meditation. Neither is a bad thing.

I would ask energy practitioners if they are aware of the desires and aversions that motivate them to to volitional activity.

You should be observing within yourself. How you attach to a thought, an emotion and you let the emotional upset flow through non-attaching. It isn't just observe the world and then investigate what mental thought arouse and why?

Just observe is attention without aversion and desire, hence the reactivity we would call attachment is ended. The emotional storms, sensations and so forth can arise and pass as they are wont to do without any interference from the one who observes.

Your practice is to notice how things feel, like typing at a very subtle level. If that is all you are doing you are missing a lot.

Also, to truly get to equanimity and not be bothered by sensations is at the 4th jnana. If you haven't experienced bliss as we have discussed earlier you haven't realized the 4th jnana. At that point it is just a mental game and not a realization.

One really has to understand their reactivity at the level of the sensations because 'from vedana craving arises'.

Of course it is. But you should admit that you don't practice Buddhism or believe in the meditation practices except for what you accept and how you interrupt them.

Mindfulness is the practice of Buddhism.

Not really Gem. You are talking about what you touch because that is real, something you can see it and feel it. Anything beyond that you don't believe.

I believe in things but I also know the things I believe are just imagined because I'm aware of what the mind is doing.

It is just another thought to say thoughts are imaginary and to try to disregard them. That is not the Buddhist way. What is saying they are imaginary? What is then investigating their origin, the cause?

Personally I'm not particularly concerned with thoughts, but it is important to know what the mind is doing.

Another thought of course but one you like.




If honesty is essential then why not say what lineage you learned from and that you don't believe in most of Buddhism.

What you do is simple, it is a starting point to the practice. I respect how much you try Gem, I really do, but I think you have created a box for yourself.

What you think has nothing to do with me, though. That's for you to know your mind.


What I simple in principle but it's very nuanced in its detail.

Let's look at the practice of mindfulness in and out of practice shall we? (From a lived experience)

How do we get to mindfulness in meditation?

Let's start with the breath. You focus on the breath, the air leaving the nose or the rise and fall of the belly. It is a object of focus. As one focuses on the breath they develop silence. The goal at this stage is not to solely focus on the breath no matter what else is happening. To have an intense concentration on the feeling of the breath.

It is to realize that silence, to reside in that silence. When the mind starts to wonder, when you get lost in visuals you return back to the breath as a point of focus, realize the silence again. You do this over and over again.

Over time the silence gets more and more powerful and comes quicker and quicker. You may only have to focus on the breath for a moment before you are deep in silence. Once this is solid one can then observe what arises in the mind. One will notice thoughts floating by without being caught up in them. They are able to observe their thoughts non attaching. That space to observe is the silence one has realized.

This here is the stage I asked you about, what comes next?

As one is observing their thoughts, deeper thoughts is what is observing the arising of thoughts that are passing through. You are noticing the thoughts, it is a thought that is making you notice what is arising. Here is a thought, this is passing through. Your mind is focusing on "that" whatever "that" is. The next step is to be like the Sky. To be in awareness and to let whatever arises in the mind arise without the mind even noticing, without it focusing on what arises.

This was the goal of MahaMudra that I had an empowerment in. When you can achieve this. It will rock your world. It is extremely powerful.

You will notice there is no special breathing, visualizations, desiring of special states of being. Just a refinement of the practice.

That is mindfulness while one is in meditation. Mindfulness in daily life one should still be able to observe ones thoughts and feelings just like in the meditation above. If you wish I can talk about mindfulness in daily life as well.

Sure. It sounds to me like you get the gist of it, but the breath meditation called anapannasati is a very detailed study of the breath sensation. You have to look very closely at the finest, subtlest details of the breath feeling you possibly can.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

It was like being hit with a bolt of lightning. Pure white and then I was gone.

No details beyond coming back to myself and the power of it lasting for days.

Looking back it was samadhi. It’s been a few years since it happened and not soon after I stopped doing a sitting meditation practice.

If nothing else just remember the Buddhist teachings of be like the sky. If your attention is drawn to the passing clouds you are not like the sky.

I see. THanks for sharing.

So you stopped sitting meditation because?

Your last comment points to awareness of ones true self.

Is it easy for you in your everyday life to hold your centredness or focus of ‘be like the sky’

What things do you still get caught up in with others and life in general?

Life itself gives one an excellent gauge of all these experiences you are becoming as an integration or union within yourself. So where do you feel challenged mostly? Or is it effortless for you now?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I would ask energy practitioners if they are aware of the desires and aversions that motivate them to to volitional activity.

Why does there have to be aversions and desires to do a spiritual practice? That is like asking you what desires lead you to do your practice?

Again you are creating negativity where there is none.

Just observe is attention without aversion and desire, hence the reactivity we would call attachment is ended. The emotional storms, sensations and so forth can arise and pass as they are wont to do without any interference from the one who observes.

That is the goal yes. Getting to that detached state is the trick. Are you saying you have arrived at that state of being where you have no attachments?

One really has to understand their reactivity at the level of the sensations because 'from vedana craving arises'.

It is one aspect.

Vedanā (Pāli and Sanskrit: वेदना) is a Buddhist term traditionally translated as either "feeling"[1] or "sensation."[2] In general, vedanā refers to the pleasant, unpleasant and neutral sensations that occur when our internal sense organs come into contact with external sense objects and the associated consciousness. Vedanā is identified as valence or "hedonic tone" in neurology.

Vedanā is identified within the Buddhist teaching as follows:

One of the seven universal mental factors in the Theravāda Abhidharma.
One of the five universal mental factors in the Mahāyāna Abhidharma.
One of the twelve links of dependent origination (in both Theravāda and Mahāyāna traditions).
One of the five skandas (in both Theravāda and Mahāyāna traditions).
One of the objects of focus within the four foundations of mindfulness practice.
In the context of the twelve links, craving for and attachment to vedanā leads to suffering; reciprocally, concentrated awareness and clear comprehension of vedanā can lead to Enlightenment and the extinction of the causes of suffering

Mindfulness is the practice of Buddhism.

It is the practice of many traditions.

I believe in things but I also know the things I believe are just imagined because I'm aware of what the mind is doing.

That thoughts or things are imagined is not a Buddhist practice.

Personally I'm not particularly concerned with thoughts, but it is important to know what the mind is doing.

Clarity of thoughts is one of the aspects of Buddha Nature so you should be.

Sure. It sounds to me like you get the gist of it, but the breath meditation called anapannasati is a very detailed study of the breath sensation. You have to look very closely at the finest, subtlest details of the breath feeling you possibly can.

Anapannasati is a very detailed teaching on meditation. It uses the Jnanas as I have pointed out in previous posts. If you are not familiar with the jnanas then you are not familar with anapannasati. Also, the teachings of anapannasati are much different than what you have taught in your thread on it.

[jonesboy]

[JustBe]I see. THanks for sharing.

So you stopped sitting meditation because?

Well before this point I had got to a point where thoughts were flows of energy in daily life. They could be silent or not but with those flows I could reside in them. If I was in an argument I could reside in the flows and then be free from attachments.

In meditation these flows did not go away. It made meditation very difficult as it was very easy to get caught up in them. Meditation at this point basically became residing in those flows, getting lost in them. That was not meditation as I had known it. It was powerful but not meditation as taught.

On aspect of my practice or daily life would be to reside in them as much as possible. I didn't learn what this was for a couple of years until I came across this book, post 14 really helps to explain things.


In Dzogchen when one gets to the point of feeling those flows 24/7 they have moved beyond a sitting practice to a being. To be honest I was just going with what felt stronger and disregarding what had become very difficult to do but it seems I was on the right path. With that being said, my experience and what those flows were was very different than the teachings by Dzogchen Master Norbu.

Your last comment points to awareness of ones true self.

I have experienced some deep stuff but being realized is still beyond me.

Is it easy for you in your everyday life to hold your centredness or focus of ‘be like the sky’

I would say there is a natural radiating clarity and silence with some days being stronger than others. As i am not realized issues still get hit, I work energetically with others and issues can be hit, rare but it happens. At this point I look forward to finding issues, obstructions so that I can work on them.

Is it easy? You have to want to everyday. Every time there is an upset you have to want to do the practice because it is easy to give in to the emotion. What I have found is as you progress and as things get hit the emotional upset goes away quicker and quicker. One can maybe at first observe themselves getting upset. If they have developed enough silence they can let it go into silence. If they are not so caught up they can reside in mindfulness and let it go that way. It's okay that things get hit but it is about letting them go as soon as they arise and if you can't then residing in the energy of the upset to help release the obstruction.

What things do you still get caught up in with others and life in general?

The same stuff as everyone else but for now it is about how long it lasts. Some are like a blink of an eye. The ones that last longer are the ones that I work with to let go of.

Life itself gives one an excellent gauge of all these experiences you are becoming as an integration or union within yourself. So where do you feel challenged mostly? Or is it effortless for you now?

There has been a definite change in being for a few years now for me. Even with that there are always obstructions to let go of. Some things are effortless and some things are a challenge.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Well before this point I had got to a point where thoughts were flows of energy in daily life. They could be silent or not but with those flows I could reside in them. If I was in an argument I could reside in the flows and then be free from attachments.

In meditation these flows did not go away. It made meditation very difficult as it was very easy to get caught up in them. Meditation at this point basically became residing in those flows, getting lost in them. That was not meditation as I had known it. It was powerful but not meditation as taught.

On aspect of my practice or daily life would be to reside in them as much as possible. I didn't learn what this was for a couple of years until I came across this book, post 14 really helps to explain things.


In Dzogchen when one gets to the point of feeling those flows 24/7 they have moved beyond a sitting practice to a being. To be honest I was just going with what felt stronger and disregarding what had become very difficult to do but it seems I was on the right path. With that being said, my experience and what those flows were was very different than the teachings by Dzogchen Master Norbu.





I have experienced some deep stuff but being realized is still beyond me.



I would say there is a natural radiating clarity and silence with some days being stronger than others. As i am not realized issues still get hit, I work energetically with others and issues can be hit, rare but it happens. At this point I look forward to finding issues, obstructions so that I can work on them.

Is it easy? You have to want to everyday. Every time there is an upset you have to want to do the practice because it is easy to give in to the emotion. What I have found is as you progress and as things get hit the emotional upset goes away quicker and quicker. One can maybe at first observe themselves getting upset. If they have developed enough silence they can let it go into silence. If they are not so caught up they can reside in mindfulness and let it go that way. It's okay that things get hit but it is about letting them go as soon as they arise and if you can't then residing in the energy of the upset to help release the obstruction.





The same stuff as everyone else but for now it is about how long it lasts. Some are like a blink of an eye. The ones that last longer are the ones that I work with to let go of.



There has been a definite change in being for a few years now for me. Even with that there are always obstructions to let go of. Some things are effortless and some things are a challenge.

When you say thoughts were flows of energy can you expand on how that is for you?


Maybe then I’ll see what you mean by the issues you had with sitting practice.

Also what do you see as realized being?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by JustBe

When you say thoughts were flows of energy can you expand on how that is for you?

If you don't mind I will share some links to another forum where I was discussing this with a Bon Dzogchen practitioner.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/460...comment=805886

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/460...comment=806809

The second link is where I go into a little more detail.

I like that entire thread on merging and guru yoga. It was a spin off from a discussion on what Buddhism has gotten wrong and goes into some details on my practice.

Also what do you see as realized being?

To me a realized being is having realized emptiness of universal mind. Unlike Buddhism I believe that differentiation is still important at that stage. So if you add in Oneness. Being the wind, the clouds, all things in all dimensions and being able to feel it as yourself.

In traditional terms it is a combination of the clarity of a Buddha with the oneness aspect from Kashmir Shaivism. It is much along the lines of a Taoist Immortal's realization.

Here is a thread that has some of the KS teachings that will help with Universal Mind and Oneness.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...hlight=triadic

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You are creating dangers where there are none. Wants and desires will not get one to achieve a state of being, bliss or anything else.

If you are doing special breathing or visualization you are not doing mindfulness.

Energy practices can help speed things up when the student is ready for them. Or they can aid in preparing the mind for meditation. Neither is a bad thing.





You should be observing within yourself. How you attach to a thought, an emotion and you let the emotional upset flow through non-attaching. It isn't just observe the world and then investigate what mental thought arouse and why?




Your practice is to notice how things feel, like typing at a very subtle level. If that is all you are doing you are missing a lot.

Also, to truly get to equanimity and not be bothered by sensations is at the 4th jnana. If you haven't experienced bliss as we have discussed earlier you haven't realized the 4th jnana. At that point it is just a mental game and not a realization.





Of course it is. But you should admit that you don't practice Buddhism or believe in the meditation practices except for what you accept and how you interrupt them.



Not really Gem. You are talking about what you touch because that is real, something you can see it and feel it. Anything beyond that you don't believe.

It is just another thought to say thoughts are imaginary and to try to disregard them. That is not the Buddhist way. What is saying they are imaginary? What is then investigating their origin, the cause?

Another thought of course but one you like.




If honesty is essential then why not say what lineage you learned from and that you don't believe in most of Buddhism.

What you do is simple, it is a starting point to the practice. I respect how much you try Gem, I really do, but I think you have created a box for yourself.

Let's look at the practice of mindfulness in and out of practice shall we? (From a lived experience)

How do we get to mindfulness in meditation?

Let's start with the breath. You focus on the breath, the air leaving the nose or the rise and fall of the belly. It is a object of focus. As one focuses on the breath they develop silence. The goal at this stage is not to solely focus on the breath no matter what else is happening. To have an intense concentration on the feeling of the breath.

It is to realize that silence, to reside in that silence. When the mind starts to wonder, when you get lost in visuals you return back to the breath as a point of focus, realize the silence again. You do this over and over again.

Over time the silence gets more and more powerful and comes quicker and quicker. You may only have to focus on the breath for a moment before you are deep in silence. Once this is solid one can then observe what arises in the mind. One will notice thoughts floating by without being caught up in them. They are able to observe their thoughts non attaching. That space to observe is the silence one has realized.

This here is the stage I asked you about, what comes next?

As one is observing their thoughts, deeper thoughts is what is observing the arising of thoughts that are passing through. You are noticing the thoughts, it is a thought that is making you notice what is arising. Here is a thought, this is passing through. Your mind is focusing on "that" whatever "that" is. The next step is to be like the Sky. To be in awareness and to let whatever arises in the mind arise without the mind even noticing, without it focusing on what arises.

This was the goal of MahaMudra that I had an empowerment in. When you can achieve this. It will rock your world. It is extremely powerful.

You will notice there is no special breathing, visualizations, desiring of special states of being. Just a refinement of the practice.

That is mindfulness while one is in meditation. Mindfulness in daily life one should still be able to observe ones thoughts and feelings just like in the meditation above. If you wish I can talk about mindfulness in daily life as well.

' Wants and desires will not get one to achieve a state of being, bliss or anything else.'

What about 'Skillful' Desires' ?


There are plenty of Teachings which show that skillful/wholesome desires are beneficial.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

' Wants and desires will not get one to achieve a state of being, bliss or anything else.'

What about 'Skillful' Desires' ?


There are plenty of Teachings which show that skillful/wholesome desires are beneficial.

Desire to refine and continue ones practice I think is different than a desire for an experience, visions or a state of being.

That is a great insight into how desire is an important role for ones practice. Thank you Sky.