The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

Originally Posted by Gem

I suggest refraining from 'you language' and/or making people into discussion topics as much as possible - because people may speak of themselves if they wish.

Thank you for the suggestion, but no.
I think we can differentiate between what people say and do without the belief we are talking about the same thing. Sorry Swami Chihuahuananda. Because we really aren't

I feel that that assumption usually gives rise to many an expectation which will subsequently not be met. Therefore I find it extremely valuable if people would explain as best they can what exactly they mean( as best they can ).

Your mileage may vary of course.
With Love
Eelco

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, I'm only trying to improve my skills in regards the navigation of my inner world, and also my skills in the social world.

Sounds good. Me too. We all are, each in our own way.

It is difficult at times and no one has it easy, and yes it's OK. The outer world is a too judgy, and we end up internalising that as self-judgment. That becomes a divisive self, as the judger and the judged.

I find that if judgment is wise discernment, it can be beautiful. If someone cared enough to actually give a damn about me personally and offer something because they can, I would certainly at least listen.

If it is judgment of someone for their critique of the oppressively exploitative aspects of social norms and society etc..(or similar)...or otherwise coming down on anyone in a vulnerable / minority position...then generally it's most uncool and unwanted IMO (and unskilled IMO).

On 'putting things out there' which are difficult... I don't encourage that. It's fine if people already feel OK and are ready to disclose themselves, but this isn't a safe place for raw wounds. I also suggest if people happen to make disclosures, it's up to them to say as much they as think is safe, and others shouldn't try to pry it open.

Of course, I agree. I did selectively choose to share a few things and discretion is of course paramount. My point was that contrary to what you might have expected, I found I could share personally here on SF about myself and very few would say anything unkind. I hope that has generally been the case for most here.

But if I question the social norms and if I really drill down on my critique of the most insidious and dehumanising aspects, I realise some may take it personally. Not because I personally criticized anyone or said they were bad or wrong...that's not my place and it's rude. But simply criticising many of the norms we've had shoved down our throat will challenge many because it's how we've had to live our lives. And if we back off of those toxic norms, we often are left simply with ourselves, our fam/friends, and our community of fellow travellers. That's no doubt what is underneath the anger or push back...the fear of not conforming adequately (no matter how ill and toxic the fit may be) and being judged and cast off for not being compliant and available...this particularly for women but a similar thing for men applied in other dehumanising ways.

Yes the universal aspiration will near enough inevitably bring us against our obstacles, and hence the difficulty, so we best understand the healing process is consequential to this thing, and be primarily concerned with our own process. I think the focus on others can be a way we use to distract ourselves, but we can easily convince ourselves it is helping.

I see your point and I agree ownership is paramount. However I also think that beyond a certain point, it is artificial and awareness of interbeing is also paramount. If we are not kind to others, do we think that it never hurts them? I think it's ok to reasonably assume that others would prefer kindness too and that unkindness also hurts them, just as all these things apply to each of us. It's also Ok to apprehend their pain directly if one is able to do that in a non-invasive way. Or to ask after them. That too is a clear guide and some of us can do that too.

OK, I'm interested in everyone's take on things, though it is fine to be reserved, and it's often for the best. Sometimes, when feeling highly compelled to speak out, it is hard to keep quiet. Mostly, when so compelled, some sort of 'prove myself' attitude is arising, maybe some need for validation, approval, appreciation, or just the burning desire to be right... so being honestly conscious of the motivation behind things is a good place for self-awareness, and it is very easy to fool ourselves about what our motivations are.

I agree folks should do whatever is best for them. I agree it's good to be honest about where we're coming from. I have recently been trying to explain more about that for myself on some of the threads, so that folks understand this is just my opinion. And what I am really speaking to is at the cultural level and is never directed toward individuals -- this is easy to assume when individuals are of course a part of this culture, but it's quite a different thing.

For myself, when I say I am interested on folks' take on things, I really mean it. I find it is uplifting and beautiful when I see and hear folks deeply engaging with themselves and with the world, and especially when they are becoming more aware and penetrating the veils of misdirection, illusion, and misalignment in their own lives. And coming into better aligned places. I feel it's important to voice our truths, and to witness and support one another as we voice our truths. To affirm that we each have truth to share, and everyone's voice is important.

This happens often when many things come together. When folks are coming to that place, when they feel ready or need to share, and also when others ask and show interest, kindness, and courtesy to them and what they have to say, i.e., if there is a safe place to share. If any one of these is missing, they may not be able to voice their truth.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

I don't find the conversation difficult. Just that most people don't seem to agree with my findings is what causes stress. Also the fact that many a spiritual conversation seems to hit the perceived dichotomy of different belief systems.

In my experience many spiritually inclined people will knowingly or unknowingly belittle there conversation partner oozing an air which spells you don't understand the elevated position I am speaking from. That precise attitude is what I find aggravating, and after years of letting it slide I intended to no longer do that. Saying it out loud when I see it.

In the end though that as about as useful as saying projecting the feeling that I find so appalling in the spiritual inclined..

ShantiMayi once said (and I'm probably misquoting what she said in lieu of my understanding from it) that the evil ones unite in bringing about chaos. As that is easy to do from a personal point of view. The blessed ones though can't seem to unite on anything which is why chaos seems so prevalent.

What I think happens is that when we find universal truths, we are only capable of expressing our understanding of it. Using the images and translated understanding in symbols that are personally meaningful, but are alien to others. Not realizing our explanations don't make sense to someone else we feel misunderstood, belittled and often attacked for our beliefs/understanding. Which in turn causes all kinds of other communicational problems..

With Love
Eelco

Cat - very nice...I feel this is exactly it. I have put some loooonnnggg posts out recently in a few places because I was trying to put my own limited understanding out there, and I realised it was not an easy thing to do.

Particularly around karma, quantum entanglement, and the relationship of karma and the foundational quantum reality within which we exist in our various incarnations.
But, separately, also some longish posts regarding the oppressive utilitarian ethic of our society and how it has invaded our minds and hearts within our interpersonal relationships.
I think I really aggravated, bored, and p*ssed off several folks...got several anonymous complaints and then had to just backtrack to all the places I left longish posts and take a look

But if you try to cook it down to just a few sentences, you really aren't saying anything hahaha...sigh...
I see it as a failure on my part to convey what I was trying to convey. Language sux really but what can we do?

Perhaps we can one day soon chuck language for illumination. Just kidding...

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Swami Chihuahuananda

It is weird... undivided wholeness abstracting into innumerable relatively stable, relatively autonomous sub-totalities * (that would be us ) , each with a unique individual perspective , and each with a slightly different apparatus for articulating it's perspective . Is it a surprise that such individualities - seemingly separated and disconnected from their source and, in fact, somehow hatched into this realm with no awareness of that source, or of any previous instances of individualized awareness , and then slowly (painfully, often) becoming more aware of "things" - would encounter and manifest differing ideas and opinions about "what's happening" , and frequently be in seeming and real disagreement ? Nope, no surprise at all .

This idea of oneness... thrown around a lot ...understood and experienced to varying degrees over the years ... finally (because of insanely cool parts of that dreadful book) hitting and being digested at a very deep, fundamental
(and mental, in a way that makes irrefutable sense ) level ... well , it's just easy for me to see that we're all really talking about the same thing . The same thing ... that's different for each one of us . We're all right, within the limitations of our own apparatus , so we each have a viable piece of the whole bigger picture to offer , but none of us is completely right , as far as being able to offer an objective opinion about a bigger picture .

That's what I think .... I think
So yeah, it can be difficult , and with practice,
one may even become somewhat skilled


ok bye

* from David Bohm's 'Wholeness and the Implicate Order' , a complex and difficult book mostly about physics, in the same way you could say that a dictionary is about words . A book I'm finding I can only digest about 1/4 of , but what I am following is pretty amazing

Agree full stop Swami and hello there! We each have a piece and we need all of them, ultimately. Hey that's the answer to Starman's "Absolute Reality" thread, I reckon :)

And yep, it certain can be difficult
I have been looking into quantum stuff too lately, on a tip from God-Like on another thread. It got me thinking about some stuff.

BTW you can go check out my ponderings on the Harmonic Reactor thread in the Science & Spirituality thread if you want to see where it led me... :)

I will check out the book sometime too - I've heard of it but hadn't really dug into it.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Sounds good. Me too. We all are, each in our own way.


I find that if judgment is wise discernment, it can be beautiful.

It probably semantic and void without context, but making judgments (being judgmental) and making discernments are two different things. The former places a value judgment on a person, and the latter is knowing what's for the best.

If someone cared enough to actually give a damn about me personally and offer something because they can, I would certainly at least listen.

If it is judgment of someone for their critique of the oppressively exploitative aspects of social norms and society etc..(or similar)...or otherwise coming down on anyone in a vulnerable / minority position...then generally it's most uncool and unwanted IMO (and unskilled IMO).


Of course, I agree. I did selectively choose to share a few things and discretion is of course paramount. My point was that contrary to what you might have expected, I found I could share personally here on SF about myself and very few would say anything unkind. I hope that has generally been the case for most here.

Well, as long as one feel and safe comfortable to do so, and they are not coerced, then all good.

But if I question the social norms and if I really drill down on my critique of the most insidious and dehumanising aspects, I realise some may take it personally. Not because I personally criticized anyone or said they were bad or wrong...that's not my place and it's rude. But simply criticising many of the norms we've had shoved down our throat will challenge many because it's how we've had to live our lives. And if we back off of those toxic norms, we often are left simply with ourselves, our fam/friends, and our community of fellow travellers. That's no doubt what is underneath the anger or push back...the fear of not conforming adequately (no matter how ill and toxic the fit may be) and being judged and cast off for not being compliant and available...this particularly for women but a similar thing for men applied in other dehumanising ways.

Probably because dropping the facade and being who you are is terribly disruptive to social identity structures. That really rattles cages, but not because you did anything particularly affronting (you'll still be seen as the villian though).

I see your point and I agree ownership is paramount. However I also think that beyond a certain point, it is artificial and awareness of interbeing is also paramount. If we are not kind to others, do we think that it never hurts them? I think it's ok to reasonably assume that others would prefer kindness too and that unkindness also hurts them, just as all these things apply to each of us. It's also Ok to apprehend their pain directly if one is able to do that in a non-invasive way. Or to ask after them. That too is a clear guide and some of us can do that too.

I think kindness is an intent we call good will. Self awareness is like knowing if this is true of your heart. It's a difficult one because we're humans with human needs, and people who say they don't do kind things with any needs of their own are probably not being entirely honest with themselves. Besides, it isn;t about not being needy. It's about being aware of the needs one has so that one doesn't unconsciously use other people to fulfill them. So self awareness, the primary concern with 'knowing what we do', is the kindest thing anyone can do.

I agree folks should do whatever is best for them. I agree it's good to be honest about where we're coming from. I have recently been trying to explain more about that for myself on some of the threads, so that folks understand this is just my opinion. And what I am really speaking to is at the cultural level and is never directed toward individuals -- this is easy to assume when individuals are of course a part of this culture, but it's quite a different thing.

Yes indeed, the fact that person feels offended doesn't actually imply that another person was offensive - and vice versa.

For myself, when I say I am interested on folks' take on things, I really mean it. I find it is uplifting and beautiful when I see and hear folks deeply engaging with themselves and with the world, and especially when they are becoming more aware and penetrating the veils of misdirection, illusion, and misalignment in their own lives. And coming into better aligned places. I feel it's important to voice our truths, and to witness and support one another as we voice our truths. To affirm that we each have truth to share, and everyone's voice is important.

Well, there are grey areas...

This happens often when many things come together. When folks are coming to that place, when they feel ready or need to share, and also when others ask and show interest, kindness, and courtesy to them and what they have to say, i.e., if there is a safe place to share. If any one of these is missing, they may not be able to voice their truth.

Peace & blessings
7L

Yes. It has to be safe, but that's not the same thing as a 'comfort zone'.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

My view is to be self-concerned and not concerned with others. At first this sounds selfish, but it isn't, because if one is not self-aware and compelled by desirous reactive mind, then they are self centred. but not particularly self aware. If we were self aware we would know what we are doing as opposed to being, like, 'they know not what they do'.

I know your view is self concerned, its an important view to being open and self reflective through the ongoing process of yourself in the world, with others and navigating more in alignment with your own values as I see this. I don't see it as selfish, but I can see why it would appear to be this way. Self awareness all the same comes through the ability to notice as much as you can with where you are in yourself. The mind/boy/spirit awareness is only as open to itself as it is open and aware and conscious of itself. So I see self aware is only a good as the one open to notice themselves ongoing and as deep as the reflection takes them. Some people are not open to themselves and don't know what they are doing because they don't have something within to meet be aware of more, more consciously, so we have a blindsight in process. Of course the awareness of more will reflect back to itself to know, but if others are not open to that, then the "playing out" can be very blinded and unnoticed to itself until something more is reflected to notice. So with regards to others I feel its important to understand this through your own self awareness and navigation and engagement.

In first instance, upon noticing what we are actually doing, a person may be shocked to find out 'so this is what I have been doing all this time'. For example, I once meditated next to man on retreat, and at the end I asked him how it went. He told me he had realised he had held a grudge for a very long time, but previously was not aware he was holding it. Then he noticed it arising as a 'distraction' to his meditation, so now, having been noticed, that grudge can't play out unconsciously any more. Each time it arises in his feelings he will notice, like, 'See - there it is again'. So, he now knows what he does.

People come to know themselves in all manner of ways of this world. Whether through self awareness and life experience in each moment, or through spontaneous sudden experiences out of the blue. There are so many ways of being and living in this world that can open things to notice yourself and more that is seeking you to notice in life itself. Your story highlights someone who became aware of his issue, and then, is able to, consciously maintain a correction point in himself as it arises in life or in his meditation practice. This is perfect to understanding deeper the end of old patterns and cycles each of us carry more complete. I know its potential in this way, and I know we can move as deep to end these things.

How you see yourself within yourself, plays a major role in how to be in the world also. I see myself as life/nature itself then I too can become all manner of ways to express and be as life and nature shows. I have choices then, but if I contain that life in myself to boundaries or limitations, then the real and true potential of myself and others, will be limited by those bounds.

I can find balance through all streams and build a bigger picture of self awareness and purpose of myself in the world in this way and express from that point of awareness of course. The potential points, will come down to deep trust to speak and be what life from within you wants, to open up what the "I" aware can become deeper. Sometimes this can be viewed as "not the way" another might precede and be, but within all streams of life, acceptance of all ways can build a deeper awareness of how I need to be in the world, but allowing and moving through it all more open to what is.

In being OK with everything, that is fine in a sense, but we can't 'allow' any nature of abuse, and there are times to say, 'This is not OK'. There has to be an ethic to weigh benefit against harm, and in our true intent we know of ourselves if we intend to hurt or benefit. It's just a bit tricky to know true intent as mind is such a convincing storyteller, so this runs deep into virtues of truthfulness. People have to respect the boundaries of others, which comes back to ethics of consent which is free of coercion, manipulation, influence and so forth.

Discerning intervention is a skill in and of itself. I try to look at each situation more as it arise to know the discernment of action or inaction, there is a deeper listening that involves more than just listening to oneself alone in this way and there is a great skill in being in trust to intervene as one needs to in this way of listening. Sometimes looking in, it may appear to be unkind, intentional, but I think understanding what is carried within most people, conditioned, repressed, unknown can arise in ways that will sometimes inflict without cause other than the cause of itself needing to arise and express itself. And sometimes this can be a good thing to clear out the channels to open another way of being. The unlocking of itself to show more within itself. If each person is taking personal responsibility for their own feelings, it supports this situation I am mentioning, sadly not all are this self reflective especially through wounds that haven't mastered as their own wounds to heal. I tend to learn through others to support my own self awareness but that is just me of course. I guess when you understand pushing through your own bounds or containment with total acceptance, then this naturally allows for others to be as they are and you as well.

In the end, being a presence more clear and open and aware more complete of him/herself is ideally the ultimate, so we only have ourselves to find that that point as. Life is an ongoing learning process of deepening into many aspects that we come to know. So what I know and understand has to become its own lead in this way. So yes self aware/self concerned/self navigated.What other life is doing and being ( I can be aware more consciously of them as part of my own engagement)is entirely up to them.

[blackraven]

Originally Posted by Gem

When we speak of the spiritual dimension of life, there is something truthful occurring within us as we explore deeper in ourselves.

Even though it's not a personal conversation, but a topical conversation, the nature of the subject requires us to be aware of our inner arisings, and it requires skills to move through these.

If we talk about nice things, joke about and so forth, it's all smooth sailing because no one is required to encounter what is true of themselves. But the spiritual conversation reveals home truths, and that, as we already know, can be a stormy sea.

If we speak seriously about the spiritual subject we are talking about the deepest aspect of ourselves, and therefore we encounter obstacles that 'stand in the way' so to speak. As navigating such obstacles requires a careful and gentle way, we would go about things in a similar way as we would thread a very fine needle. Just as this delicate task requires fullness of attention and care, so too does the 'spiritual task' I allude to.

Rather than being nice and comfortable, this sort of discourse is truthful, and that can be discomforting because each one faces their own home truths. No one faces the home truths of anyone else, so psychoanalysing, accusing, and 'you language' in general does no good for anyone, and only presents risks of harm. Caveat being, complimentary remarks can be encouraging.

As we speak more deeply on the spiritual dimension of us, we are bound to hit on obstacles which hold emotional contents in ourselves, which makes it a difficult topic, so it requires our best skills, both in how we transverse our inner worlds, and in our expressed conversation.

The spiritual conversation is indeed difficult and requires much awareness of both self and the audience to which one is addressing. Spirituality is uniquely personal and because of that, it’s sometimes hard to put it into words that others understand or can comprehend with their own context of experience.

First problem is I have to define what spirituality is for myself. Perhaps I can’t define it, because it exists at a deeper emotional, felt level. It then is an intimate dance when coming forward on a forum with what I might believe are other like-minded persons. But how can that be? No two people can think alike or experiences alike. Sometimes it may feel futile, but that’s only if one doesn’t care to open up conversation to other’s experiences and truly listen, learn and accept. But in the end, there remains my own personal life experiences in the arena of spirituality, which again, is hard to define. Yet, I do gain insight from sharing because there is feedback and it allows me a brief view of other’s spirituality and what that means to them.

It’s a one of those touchy topics because it’s the whole of one’s life experiences all wrapped up into one mind and one mindset. It then becomes subject to judgment, which is why it’s advised to share only what one feels comfortable with. It’s odd to me that judgment enters into a conversation about what spirituality is for individuals. Some people think it’s universal or can be defined categorically, but in all actuality, it can’t.

I can share my paranormal experiences in that area of the forum, but again it’s a story telling thing that others either believe me and relate or they don’t and form an opinion.

I guess on forums thick skin must be developed. I can’t care what others think or perceive of my personal and private experiences. Equally so though, because I protect myself like this I also have the insight to protect other’s definition of spirituality as well. Mutual respect can be achieved, but again, it’s a delicate dance. As pointed out earlier “you” statements automatically put me on defense because I don’t have to justify my life experiences or why I’m here. It’s all I know and it’s as real as I get, so “you” statements just get thrown out and I tend to move on to listeners and respecters.

[happy soul]

Originally Posted by Gem

When we speak of the spiritual dimension of life, there is something truthful occurring within us as we explore deeper in ourselves.

Even though it's not a personal conversation, but a topical conversation, the nature of the subject requires us to be aware of our inner arisings, and it requires skills to move through these.

If we talk about nice things, joke about and so forth, it's all smooth sailing because no one is required to encounter what is true of themselves. But the spiritual conversation reveals home truths, and that, as we already know, can be a stormy sea.

If we speak seriously about the spiritual subject we are talking about the deepest aspect of ourselves, and therefore we encounter obstacles that 'stand in the way' so to speak. As navigating such obstacles requires a careful and gentle way, we would go about things in a similar way as we would thread a very fine needle. Just as this delicate task requires fullness of attention and care, so too does the 'spiritual task' I allude to.

Rather than being nice and comfortable, this sort of discourse is truthful, and that can be discomforting because each one faces their own home truths. No one faces the home truths of anyone else, so psychoanalysing, accusing, and 'you language' in general does no good for anyone, and only presents risks of harm. Caveat being, complimentary remarks can be encouraging.

As we speak more deeply on the spiritual dimension of us, we are bound to hit on obstacles which hold emotional contents in ourselves, which makes it a difficult topic, so it requires our best skills, both in how we transverse our inner worlds, and in our expressed conversation.

Thanks for sharing this very insightful observation.

I agree with you.

And you yourself always seem to demonstrate the skill you're referring to in your posts, and profoundly so.

Intellectual intelligence is useful on the spiritual path, as the Dalai Lama has said. It can also present unique obstacles however. I'm reminded of a teaching from the Tao Te Ching: 'Why are the people hard to govern? Because they are too clever.'

Intellect, as all things, can be used in fear or in love. It can be engaged in wisely or unwisely.

Consider non-human life on earth. Its simplicity and 'lack of intelligence' (to put it poorly) is surely partly responsible for its spiritual excellence.

Indeed human intellect may be humankind's greatest enemy, and with the great technology these days, could possibly mean our extinction.

Of course, everyone knows that Albert Einstein invented the nuclear bomb. Definitely an example of extreme intelligence being dangerous.

On the other hand, intelligence may be the remedy to our problems. Used wisely and in love, it could possibly solve the problems we face as a civilization.

[blossomingtree]

I find this thread interesting because most posters seem to be talking about different things - some are talking about how sharing their personal intimate spiritual experiences is hard, some talk about being misunderstood or having their attempts to communicate complained about, some notice (correctly, in my opinion) that most things are spiritual, some are feeling sorry for themselves and others are just saying, hey that's great. There are others - I think Jyotir is talking about what true spirituality might entail and the importance of it, catsquotl is honest and forthright as usual.

My opinion:

I don't find "the spiritual conversation" difficult - sure, some people might scoff or disbelieve or have different opinions, that's par for the course, and it doesn't fundamentally matter (to me). What matters in my books is shared sincerity and sharing of experiences and the joyous, shared wish for each other to excel and achieve the spiritual goals that each person is seeking, to mutually support in this kinship. What also matters to me is honesty and people not leading others down the garden path, whether through conscious deliberation or plain ignorance, but hey we all do what we can. Isn't that what life is about? This shared unison of ideals and ideas, energy and compassion.

As to the rest of the "woe is me" comments, it's probably a matter of confusion. If this was a spiritual conversation, it'd actually be much, much easier in my books.

BT

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yea, different teachers express different views because they are just people like anyone else.

That's a common misconception. Very often spiritual masters (assuming mastery) use different language but point to the same unspoken Truths - that's the beauty of spiritual practices when they are real - they are part of the ineffable Truth.

If you are talking about people on the spiritual circuit, or forums, yes some seem to contradict each other. But I wouldn't confuse that with the above.

BT