What is it that makes a spiritual person 'spiritual' to you?

Originally Posted by Kioma

Well said. I am not afraid of labels - I appreciate labels, as very useful tools. Words are not the things they represent - they are just representations.

The question is what do they represent? The labels don't represent what the 'thing' actually is, they represent what's in your head.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'm a trainer#/assessor by trade so yes, I do know all about the learning process. And in part judging is a part of that process so no arguments there. In terms of Spiritual understanding though, as far as I'm concerned it's also about the introspection and understanding the processes that lead to the judgement and any subsequent thoughts or actions. If a Spiritual person chooses not to understand how their judgements are formed, can they label themselves as Spiritual while ignoring self-awareness? Isn't that also part of the learning process?

There are a lot of understandings and realisations that come before deciding if a person is Spiritual or not.

I respect your profession and associated insights in learning process.

In social sciences there are always individual aspects and collective aspects . In collective aspects how the aggregations work is what social sciences study from various prisms like politics , economics , psychology , spirituality etc . What u say about spirituality perfectly holds good as far as we view it from individual angle .But when it comes to collective understanding of it , we must have real understanding of the subject matter ie spirit/soul . In that connection it is perfectly valid question/discussion. e.g .economics lays categories of countries developed , under-developed , developing nations based on lot of collective aspects . Same way psychology diagnoses people like ADHD , bipolar ,PTSD, OCD, anxiety etc which is fine.

Now that your point that if you say I am from under-developed country (India) , I would certainly feel because of the label and associated therewith many judgements and prejudices . But I realise that it is based on certain material living conditions like GDP , PCI , standard of living etc economists have categorised this and it may be possible that our ancestors , our leaders and our people may have done something wrong choices leading to that categorization . So such labels are also an opportunity to improve upon and change when one really knows in relation to others (like u can see what Singapore/Japan/China have achieved ).

Also your question pre-suppose neither Kioma nor I have undergone the pre-requisite conditions you indicate to . That's unfair to Kioma and me both while we are just trying to learn something .

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Spirituality has really no value except to mark or not mark a person. Spirituality is relative. What one considers spirituality, you probably can find a person who will say the exact opposite.

Spirituality is used very much like words such as 'good' or 'bad'. Same goes for 'high vibration' and 'low vibration'.

Relative/absolute applies to all sciences (no 2 economists / political expert / psychologists give u the same answer to a question ). Only that people try to understand / derive some patterns & cause effect . If that cause-effect resonates with reality and reality puts its weight behind it , it becomes scientific laws /axioms.

[Mystik]

For me personally it comes down to one word and that is mindfulness. If someone practices mindfulness then everything else will fall into place. It takes practice though and you have to be mindful that you are mindful.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Put those dooks up, baby.

Put up those dooks baby??? Feeling feisty are we? My goodness but you have such confidence in yourself. I do believe I'm jealous.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The next question I suppose is what is judgement to you, personally? If that person is Spiritual that's as much of a judgement as saying they're bad, the only difference is the 'results' of the judgement. You - and everybody else - has an image of what a Spiritual person should say/do/act like and if I say/do/act like according to your image then you've judged me as Spiritual. If you yourself are as Spiritual as you'd like to think you are then you'd be self-ware enough to realise that this is what you're doing. If you don't realise that you're doing it, then how Spiritual does that makes you and how does that give you leave to decide if someone else is Spiritual or not?

It is interesting to me that it is precisely my abstaining from judging that seems to have brought on this deluge of discontent. My apologies, but I can't help but wonder why.

Greenslade, I made no judgement, and this seems to genuinely rile you. Why?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

And by the way, I was asking questions not making statements so if you took it so personally I guess that says something about you as well. The questions in my reply were asked in order to stimulate, not accuse.

Do we really need to go through the exercise where I parse your statements word by word? Perhaps that is not what you meant - but that is what you said. You can read it yourself.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The question is what do they represent? The labels don't represent what the 'thing' actually is, they represent what's in your head.

What's in your head Greeenslade?

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

I respect your profession and associated insights in learning process.

Thank you

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

In social sciences there are always individual aspects and collective aspects . In collective aspects how the aggregations work is what social sciences study from various prisms like politics , economics , psychology , spirituality etc . What u say about spirituality perfectly holds good as far as we view it from individual angle .But when it comes to collective understanding of it , we must have real understanding of the subject matter ie spirit/soul . In that connection it is perfectly valid question/discussion. e.g .economics lays categories of countries developed , under-developed , developing nations based on lot of collective aspects . Same way psychology diagnoses people like ADHD , bipolar ,PTSD, OCD, anxiety etc which is fine.

Now that your point that if you say I am from under-developed country (India) , I would certainly feel because of the label and associated therewith many judgements and prejudices . But I realise that it is based on certain material living conditions like GDP , PCI , standard of living etc economists have categorised this and it may be possible that our ancestors , our leaders and our people may have done something wrong choices leading to that categorization . So such labels are also an opportunity to improve upon and change when one really knows in relation to others (like u can see what Singapore/Japan/China have achieved ).

Also your question pre-suppose neither Kioma nor I have undergone the pre-requisite conditions you indicate to . That's unfair to Kioma and me both while we are just trying to learn something .

I actually understand how categories and prisms operate so I really I can't do much else, other than to agree with what you're saying. So yes, I do understand. I wouldn't treat you as a person any different being from India and would always treat you as an individual. Anything else is discrimination and stereotyping. As the saying used to go - "If you label me you disable me." I'm not in the disabling game. I've been a victim of judgements and prejudices too.

Labels are labels, but my point is that we need to understand how it is we use them and come to attach labels in the first place, because in terms of learning we need to learn about ourselves. Many years ago I asked myself what it was I thought I was doing when I called myself a 'Spiritual person'.

I do apologise if you think it's unfair, that wasn't the intention.

Originally Posted by Kioma

Put up those dooks baby??? Feeling feisty are we? My goodness but you have such confidence in yourself. I do believe I'm jealous.

Just trying to inject a little humour.

Originally Posted by Kioma

It is interesting to me that it is precisely my abstaining from judging that seems to have brought on this deluge of discontent. My apologies, but I can't help but wonder why.

Greenslade, I made no judgement, and this seems to genuinely rile you. Why?

Whether a person is Spiritual or not is a judgement, what is Spiritual or not is a judgement.

Originally Posted by Kioma

Do we really need to go through the exercise where I parse your statements word by word? Perhaps that is not what you meant - but that is what you said. You can read it yourself.

This is what I was referring to - http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1939305&postcount=12

Originally Posted by Kioma

What's in your head Greeenslade?

So many things right now.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Thank you

I actually understand how categories and prisms operate so I really I can't do much else, other than to agree with what you're saying. So yes, I do understand. I wouldn't treat you as a person any different being from India and would always treat you as an individual. Anything else is discrimination and stereotyping. As the saying used to go - "If you label me you disable me." I'm not in the disabling game. I've been a victim of judgements and prejudices too.

Labels are labels, but my point is that we need to understand how it is we use them and come to attach labels in the first place, because in terms of learning we need to learn about ourselves. Many years ago I asked myself what it was I thought I was doing when I called myself a 'Spiritual person'.

I do apologise if you think it's unfair, that wasn't the intention.

Thanks GS for elaborate response . Effectively I don't see a disagreement here. I agree many a times when u label you disable . But at the same time it is also an equally powerful fact that when you label , u understand / identify and becomes a very good code to understand others without talking much. You can see how much humanity benefited when scientists classified elements in 105 elements and they grouped /sub-grouped etc .

So like any tool , if the person using the tool is not proper , the situations you specified arises and have to be tackled . But if the person using the tool is skilled adept , it can produce amazing results .

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Whether a person is Spiritual or not is a judgement, what is Spiritual or not is a judgement.

That depends, IMO.

'Judgement' has such a connotation of finality and certainty - is that the intention behind it?

The scientific method has a tradition of calling all it's findings 'theories' for the simple reason that something is understood to be 'true' only until disproven. This stands to reason as ALL thoughts are only representations, just as you say - well then, can I really state with absolute finality and certainty what is what - if, in fact, anything is anything?

As I said, I have my views and thoughts, and I can certainly be just as judgmental as the next person, but when all is said and done what does that really mean? Let's say I believe I know what it is that makes someone 'spiritual' - believe it with all my being - and then I learn something that changes my view. Do I now really know what it is that makes someone 'spiritual', no matter how much I wish it was so, no matter how concretely I believe that my belief actually defines what it is that makes someone 'spiritual'?

It is for this reason that I refer to my beliefs and 'judgments' as understandings. It is how I currently understand something. Knowing that my understanding could change at any moment, even though my understanding may have remained the same for many years, by calling my views 'understandings' I believe makes the proper context and circumstances of my 'judgements' much more accurate.

[hallow]

The feel of the energy within the Earth, and the energy of the living and non living things.