The Matrix films

Originally Posted by Poppies

Do you have thoughts on "why she does those things"?

Well, at several different points, The Oracle can be said to be very gently steering our characters (Neo, in particular) towards experiences of suffering. Granted, the choice of what to do at the junctures that the characters find themselves in, is still always theirs

[quote=Space_Man]

Originally Posted by Poppies

Do you have thoughts on "why she does those things"?

Well, at several different points, The Oracle can be said to be very gently steering our characters (Neo, in particular) towards experiences of suffering. Granted, the choice of what to do at the junctures that the characters find themselves in, is still always theirs

Lets expand on our discussion a bit, and bring some issues of free-will, pre-determinism and re-incarnation into the picture.

I want to focus on some lines of dialogue from Reloaded, which I found to be some of the most complex, in the entire story. Let

I dont have to concentration to fully catch up on this thread yet but I wanted to think on one thing:

Now, the question: Within the Judeo/Christian framework, how similar is the matrix to heaven, The Architect to being a god-like figure, and the agents to being angels?

Is it okay to start off with:

I reckon that the Architect is in effect, the Creator God;
he created the matrix - which is in effect 'heaven';
the agents are the 'servants of God and of the matrix - they are in effect 'angels'.

I respectfully disagree. I do not see the Matrix as "Heaven". In fact i think if you take the Matrix in a purely Christian way, you're kind of missing a lot of the point. The Watchowski brothers draw much more on Buddhist, Hindu, etc teachings. Its much deeper than simply being a christian allegory IMHO. Im not denying thats ONE interpretation but i think theres a huge number of other possible interpretations! I see it in many different ways - the first is more like the Garden of Eden - superficially it is a paradise, in that no actual bodily harm can happen and it functions comfortably, but the people in it are blind. The other is that the Matrix represents as the Earth as it is to most of us. Which is where some of the much more philosophically deep meanings and parallels come in- such as:

The Allegory of the Cave and the Theory of Forms (Plato)

Plato said that when we look at something in the physical world, we are only seeing a shadow of one of the Forms. For example, if i'm looking at something "beautiful", that thing has a share in Beauty. But Beauty is also a concept and has a form all of its own but we can never see the Form, only the shadow of it. Beauty is a quality This applies to everything. A woman might be beautiful in comparison to an uglier woman, but she is also not beautiful in comparison to a goddess. She is not TRULY beautiful and nothing physical is. Also, only a Philosopher can know the Forms, and they are invisible, eternal, and unchanging. So most of us are in the dark, and only Philosophers, who can see the forms, have REAL KNOWLEDGE. The rest of us are ignorant and have only opinions, not knowledge.

This is where the Cave comes in. For an explanation of the Cave Allegory and the parallels between it and The Matrix, see:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/T...latoscave.html

In short, the Matrix is the state most of us are in - we have no knowledge because all we see is shadows of the real world. and the Agents are the Matrix version of the "puppet handlers". Only through philosophy and coming to know the Forms and expanding our minds with knowledge can we see the light.

Maya

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In Vedic philosophy, maya (Sanskrit: ma: not, ya: this) is the illusion of a limited, purely physical and mental reality in which our everyday consciousness has become entangled, a veiling of the true, unitary Self, also known as Brahman. Maya originated in the Hindu scriptures known as the Upanishads. Many philosphies or religions seek to "pierce the veil" in order to glimpse the transcendent truth, from which the illusion of a physical reality springs, drawing from the idea that first came to life in the Hindu stream of Vedanta.

In Hinduism, Maya must be seen through in order to achieve moksha (liberation of the soul from the cycle of death and rebirth) - ahamkar (ego-consciousness) and karma are seen as part of the binding forces of Maya. Maya is seen as the phenomenal universe, a lesser reality-lens superimposed on the one Brahman that leads us to think of the phenomenal cosmos as real. Maya is also visualized as part of the Divine Mother (Devi) concept of Hinduism. In the Hindu scripture 'Devi Mahatmyam,' Mahamaya (Great Maya) is said to cover Vishnu's eyes in Yoganidra (Divine Sleep) during cycles of existence when all is resolved into one. By exhorting Mahamaya to release Her illusory hold on Vishnu, Brahma is able to bring Vishnu to aid him in killing two demons, Madhu and Kaitabh, who have manifested from Vishnu's sleeping form. Shri Ramakrishna often spoke of Mother Maya and combined deep Hindu allegory with the idea that Maya is a lesser reality that must be overcome so that one is able to realize his or her true Self.

The Watchowski brothers were heavily influenced by Buddhist and Hindu philosophy - notably there are huge numbers of references to rebirth/enlightenment in the films - so there's no doubt it could be at least partially derivative of this idea. A lot of it is similar to the Cave allegory- but im not sure I totally understand the depth of it because i dont know enough about Hindu philosophy so I will certainly come back to this idea. But I see several parallells, including the idea that physical reality is ultimately an illusion and is meaningless in comparison to philosophical reality, the world of thoughts, and of spirituality.

Ill come back to that one another time.

Christian

To shortly summarise, i think that that the Matrix can be seen as three different Christian ideas:

- Heaven - as outlined by others in this thread!
- The Garden of Eden - because superficially, there is no real suffering, but it is a restricted existence where people do not have knowledge. Gaining knowledge is synonomous with exiting Eden, just like in the Matrix - the only way for people to believe is to show them.
- The world as it is - because our world is a prison, seperate from God. The only way to escape is to embrace God, and thus gaining a place in Heaven.

Cogito Ergo Sum
(I think, therefore i am)

I also think The Matrix represents Descartes' Cogito argument - that the only thing I as an individual can know is my existence because if i am doubting my existence, i must exist in order to doubt it!!!

Anxious Philosophy Student- "Teacher, teacher, please tell me, do I exist?!"
Philosophy Professor - "Who's asking?"

But everything else could theoretically be an illusion. While Descartes does not like Plato and others suggest that we ACTUALLY should doubt absoloutely everything, the idea is that we could. Because we COULD be in The Matrix and how would we know?

There are more. Many many more. And ive only gone into the first film really here.
But im anxious to know what people think of these interpretations before i go further.

Hi Jaded Melody!

Originally Posted by jadedmelody

I dont have to concentration to fully catch up on this thread yet but I wanted to think on one thing:

Well... if this is you not having the concentration to fully catch up on this thread..... I'm impressed!!!!

Originally Posted by Poppies

I respectfully disagree. I do not see the Matrix as "Heaven".

I had quite a discussion on this with Space_Man on a previous Matrix thread... I can see exactly where you're coming from, but maybe this quote from the Brian Takle essay on Reloaded: The Rave Scene will help clarify things a bit.....

Originally Posted by Takle

The feet on the ground means that Zion is on Earth. Plain and simple. This parallels the Architect scene, and gets to the main thesis. We are cast out of the "perfection" of Heaven and living in the Real World. Symbolically, the Matrix is Heaven. Cypher makes this point in the first movie. The Real World is hard, dirty, and uncomfortable. The Matrix is, well, paradise. This point is made again in the first movie by Agent Smith, who calls the Matrix "the perfect human world" [paraphrased]. Recall that the Architect scene happens in utterly clean, utterly white perfection [4].

The Biblical reference is clear enough. Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, and the rest of Zion have rejected God's Garden of Eden where all their needs are taken care of in favor of a hard, scrabbling existence where at least they have free will.

Sorry Spacey, I missed your post when I replied to Jaded Melody....

[quote=Space_Man]

The Oracle: You have the sight now, Neo. You are looking at the world without time.
Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her [Trinity]?
The Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
Neo: Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
The Oracle: No. You've already made the choice, now you have to understand it.

Specifically, let

Jadedmelody: Bear with me, and I

[quote=Space_Man]Jadedmelody: Bear with me, and I

Originally Posted by jadedmelody

...its SUPPOSED to be open to a million interpretations. Its supposed to make us ask questions.

It certainly accomplished that goal, didn

I'm so excited that I can finally post here! :lol:

I have become a little Matrix geek since the other thread like this! heehe (And have finally got my hands on the animatrix collection which I plan to watch asap!)

anyway, back to the thread....

Originally Posted by Poppies

Okay... I'm feeling in the dark a bit here... but would it be possible that The Oracle knows the choice that Neo will make because a previous One had already made the choice?

So she didn't know because she was 'all-knowing'.... she knew because she'd seen the choice before.... does that make sense at all?

I readily admit that I could be completely and utterly wrong here, but this is what came to mind as I read your post....

The problem that I see here, is that doesn;t Neo make a different choice to what the previos One's made? As in, you could say he even transcends the barriers of the One? Because, he doesnt choose the door that would save the Matrix, he choses the one to save Trinity....
Furthermore, does The Oracle even know what choice Neo has made, or is she merely saying that he's already made it?
Also, I think it;d be interesting to look at how Neo understands the choices he makes...I dont fully understand this aspect of him....I dont see where in the films he is ever understanding his choices....this could just be me being dense...but I really dont at all...

Originally Posted by jadedmelody

Also i think that the feet on the ground may be being slightly more meaningful than just "this means that Zion represents Earth".

So then, in your opinion, what else does it mean / represent?

Another thing that confuses me about the films (and I figure here is the best place to pose the quesion! lol) is that in Brian Takles essays, he talks about when Neo is 'made' into another Smith right at the end and says this:

The new Smith is not part of the "collective Smith" at all

Fair enough, but then he goes on to talk about how information is passed freely within all the Smiths - again, fine. So he concludes (this little bit) by saying that when Neo/Smith connected with the Source he was deleted. Again, fine. But then he says that because information flows freely within all the SMiths, the others are deleted also....so my question is this, how could the information flow freely is Neo/Smith is "not part of the 'collective Smith' at all"??

Okay, thats it for now...