The Two Truths

[jonesboy]

[quote=sky123]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

This is a Buddhist section...
No thanks I can get the various terms as you do... via Google or even better, my own experiences.

Sky we both know you don't experience anything described.

It is a Buddhist section but emptiness is not solely Buddhist.

You did mention that my previous post was one by Jeff and others may describe it differently..

I showed you one that talks about it using emptiness and motion/light :)

While it is from a Hindu tradition it is in line with Buddhist thought

[sky]

[quote=jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Sky we both know you don't experience anything described.

It is a Buddhist section but emptiness is not solely Buddhist.

You did mention that my previous post was one by Jeff and others may describe it differently..

I showed you one that talks about it using emptiness and motion/light :)

While it is from a Hindu tradition it is in line with Buddhist thought

Yes you are correct, I do not experience anything that you describe, thankfully.....

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Like a fire, but one does not experience that emptiness

In the prasangika madhyamka system one experiences emptiness or - to put it differently - one directly perceives emptiness.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

To much effort to quote what you are saying? Interesting.

Searching in the text of Jeffrey Hopkins /Tsongkhapa to find the reference of what I am saying isn't worth the effort.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

That is an intellectual understanding.. You have not realized the oneness of that tablet and perceived the empty nature of said object.

There is no oneness in prasangika madhyamaka since the tablet isn't you and you are not the tablet. But both, the tablet and you, do not inherently exist.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

That is conventional.. it is all thinking.. not being of which emptiness is beyond.

Language is convention. How can you apply words according to language without convention?
Also in order to use language consistently you have to think.
But all that does not negate that both, language and thought do not exist inherently and thus are empty of truth.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

In the prasangika madhyamka system one experiences emptiness or - to put it differently - one directly perceives emptiness.

Perceives it intellectually.. show me where they say it any differently

Searching in the text of Jeffrey Hopkins /Tsongkhapa to find the reference of what I am saying isn't worth the effort.

Of course

There is no oneness in prasangika madhyamaka since the tablet isn't you and you are not the tablet. But both, the tablet and you, do not inherently exist.

It is all of the same essence which is you.. basic Buddhism

You know that Ground of Being stuff and one of the components of that being is energy?????

Language is convention. How can you apply words according to language without convention?
Also in order to use language consistently you have to think.
But all that does not negate that both, language and thought do not exist inherently and thus are empty of truth.

Keep trying, because you are saying the Dharma is empty of truth.. which is way against Buddhist beliefs

[jonesboy]

[quote=sky123]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Yes you are correct, I do not experience anything that you describe, thankfully.....

Sounds good.. Thank you for that admission

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Perceives it intellectually.. show me where they say it any differently

I do not know what intellectual perception is. But maybe what you are trying to get at is conceptual understanding vs. direct perception? there is of course a difference like you can conceptually understand that chocolate tastes sweet without having experienced the taste of chocolate.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

It is all of the same essence which is you.. basic Buddhism

yeah I have come across many irrational buddhists during the last years.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Keep trying, because you are saying the Dharma is empty of truth.. which is way against Buddhist beliefs

Of course. Everything exists only through imputation and thus is empty of truth.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

I do not know what intellectual perception is. But maybe what you are trying to get at is conceptual understanding vs. direct perception? there is of course a difference like you can conceptually understand that chocolate tastes sweet without having experienced the taste of chocolate.

Buddhism is about the realization that you are that chocolate

See the difference between a thought and not?

yeah I have come across many irrational buddhists during the last years.

lol, what do you think a Buddha is?

Of course. Everything exists only through imputation and thus is empty of truth.

Everything exists only through thoughts?

Maybe we should look at what Dzogchen say's the Primordial State is for reference.

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

So everything is really energy which it's true nature is emptiness.

To say that the laptop is a separate, or is a different energy is one of duality.. which most defiantly is not Buddhism.

It is a realization of oneness with that energy, which is all things and then the realization that Emptiness/void= form/energy is one and the same.. The Heart Sutra :)

Not getting stuck in voidness or getting lost in the light.. That they are all one and the same is the heart of Buddhism.

It most defiantly is not an imputation

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Buddhism is about the realization that you are that chocolate

See the difference between a thought and not?

I see the difference between irrational thought and rational thought. If buddhists prefer to be chocolate then that's buddhism.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

lol, what do you think a Buddha is?

No concern of mine. I leave this up to buddhists.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Everything exists only through thoughts?

There are different levels of imputation reaching from intuition to full-fledged conceptual thought.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Maybe we should look at what Dzogchen say's the Primordial State is for reference.

But that is no reference in terms of the two truths that you posit. you are trying to escape through changing the subject.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So everything is really energy which it's true nature is emptiness.

To say that the laptop is a separate, or is a different energy is one of duality.. which most defiantly is not Buddhism.

It is a realization of oneness with that energy, which is all things and then the realization that Emptiness/void= form/energy is one and the same.. The Heart Sutra :)

Not getting stuck in voidness or getting lost in the light.. That they are all one and the same is the heart of Buddhism.

It most defiantly is not an imputation

Take it as whatever you like. I do not care. But I advice to not confuse views in search of truth. Since there is no truth linguistic expressions have to fit the view one is currently applying. In a thread about 'the two truths' only a dialectical view is applicable, i.e. only a view which applies reasoning and logic.

[Ground]

double post deleted

[naturesflow]

The absence of something, the total absence, the total not-being, non-existence of anything that is not there through the power of language and thought is shunyata, emptiness, the ultimate truth.

To me emptiness and completeness are not two separate things. So I am both being and not being in this way. Empty space, with awareness that space is compete and I create ongoing from that awareness in myself.

In the unfolding of my own self awareness and letting go process, passing through the emptiness to gain the awareness is not a fixed place or an ultimate place, its an awareness of yourself as "empty space" /awareness of yourself as "nothingness"...you enter this to be "aware" of yourself in this "space" to know yourself as more. To know yourself as a life, beyond your own mind conditioned, attached and held prisoner by yourself.

While alive in body when you have let go and clear to move through, it simply becomes a "new space" a creative foundation to continue living and relating from aware and open to do so in yourself. Life goes on..one way or another, so emptiness is simply a point of awareness to know that you can let go back to this point as a way of being, to know your complete.

So all movements are temporary in this view. What is moving in me, what is moving outside of me, becomes a part of the awareness and realization in the emptiness and completeness of life, that life continuously is moving through both aware and unaware all the time, creating life. Such is the nature of all life together.

While there is life, you can still be and hold the awareness of yourself as the "emptiness/empty space" So I am "not being" and I am "being" both at the same time in my expression and awareness.

I don't need to separate this out. I am aware of the whole "experience" "knowing" "awareness" moving as that. So I move myself aware and open as that..

In the continuous movements of life, truth is only a recognition point that "I know" entering into a "space" that is articulating your experience, of being "aware" of something, ..Entering the emptiness, I became aware that I now "know myself" as emptiness. I was aware of myself arriving at this point to "know" become aware of myself as "part of that "nothing" space"... I move from that point aware. It is not something I need to hold onto to be aware of myself as this.

The experience of this life seems to be "as" important to the awareness of "no life" hence why many are moving back into life open and aware of themselves in this way. To create a life that is more in harmony with the natural movements of life itself.


In the integration of all that into life, there is always more, simply because I am here as life creating life into being..