Nothing is required... ?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Nothing is required in order for your true nature to be the case. It's already the case right now. THIS… is already the case. Oneness is already the case. Reality requires nothing in order for Reality to be.

According to some teachings that's that. They point out 'you are what you seek' ‘Oneness is already the case' therefore any seeking, inquiry, meditation etc. is futile, pointless, worthless.

But this overlooks an essential point - it may be quite true to say that nothing is required in order to BE who you are, but in order to REALISE this, a 'penny dropping' felt-sense-recognition IS required. Without this it's just an intellectual rationalisation (and many teachings are just that.)

Anything that apparently helps facilitate this 'felt-sense recognition' - be it meditation, self-inquiry, existential crisis, solitude, walking across a London park etc. is no bad thing.

But let's be clear, this is not about becoming, it's not about about struggle or straining for perfection, it's not about something that becomes something else - it's about the realisation of something that is always already the case.

Exactly .. So one might as well be lost seeking for Self / the realization ..

If the realization isn't present, then where is it? Why isn't it present now?

Peeps that speak about seeking being pointless are not Self realized .

Peeps that are intellectually pointing out that what you are is already present, is just stating the obvious .. The obvious doesn't reflect what's realized .


x daz x

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Nothing is required in order for your true nature to be the case. It's already the case right now. THIS… is already the case. Oneness is already the case. Reality requires nothing in order for Reality to be.

According to some teachings that's that. They point out 'you are what you seek' ‘Oneness is already the case' therefore any seeking, inquiry, meditation etc. is futile, pointless, worthless.

But this overlooks an essential point - it may be quite true to say that nothing is required in order to BE who you are, but in order to REALISE this, a 'penny dropping' felt-sense-recognition IS required. Without this it's just an intellectual rationalisation (and many teachings are just that.)

Anything that apparently helps facilitate this 'felt-sense recognition' - be it meditation, self-inquiry, existential crisis, solitude, walking across a London park etc. is no bad thing.

But let's be clear, this is not about becoming, it's not about about struggle or straining for perfection, it's not about something that becomes something else - it's about the realisation of something that is always already the case.

First time I have read this. It reads well.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Exactly .. So one might as well be lost seeking for Self / the realization ..

If the realization isn't present, then where is it? Why isn't it present now?

Peeps that speak about seeking being pointless are not Self realized .

Peeps that are intellectually pointing out that what you are is already present, is just stating the obvious .. The obvious doesn't reflect what's realized .

x daz x

Ahh ... the 'bubble' of Awareness and Knowledge pertaining to what one is 'Aware' of or might yet become 'Aware' of.

IMO, what is called 'Enlightenment', that is the idea of becoming totally (completely, absolutely) 'enlightened' is a seductive boondoggle. Why? For the same reason that when a bulb is turned on in a dark 'room' (any potential awareness-'space') one just 'sees' everything 'in' that 'room'.

Besides that (news flash for naive 'believers'!), one can't possibly know the dynamics of the relationships between everything that is presently going on in that 'room' which everything has historically been going on and will historically go on, literally, forever. For that to 'happen' one would need to be a computer as big' and as powerful as All of Creation Itself.

What I see 'happening' in all sorts of ways over and over again is that presumably because not being aware of and not knowing 'everything' makes them nervous , peeping would-be peepers want to believe that it's possible to be aware of and know everything, or everything that really 'matters'. So they mistake the admitted fantastic, "once I was blind but now I see" 'room' that they 'awaken' to at some point or at succeeding points for whole shebang. They then become prisoners of said 'room', smugly ensconced in the delusion that they are now 'perfectly' (meaning totally, completely, absolutely, etc.) 'aware' and 'knowing'.

What's more, those who are the most enthusiastically convinced that such delusion is 'real' then become magnetic attractors for those who are stymied and/or still insecure in terms of being able to see what's really what for themselves or, if they are relatively 'secure', whose 'delusions' aren't as powerfull as theirs, who then gravitate into a spinning wheel retinue universe of followers following followers with said delusional 'sun-stars' located at the 'center' of their solar-enlightenment-system.

Admittedly, the view presented here is overly simple. There are a kazillion lightbulbs in the each and every universe in our multiverse, each bulb illuminating some aspect(s) or feature(s) of IT, IT being the ENTITY of LIFE and the PROCESS of LIVING! And even the most 'orthodox' of any belief-system believers at least unconsciously 'knows' that there are other valid and potentially Life-enhancing ways of 'seeing' (and so experiencing!) things.

I say all this to alert peeps to the truth contained in Don Juan's caveat pertaining to 'clarity'. Asrekated by Castaneda:

"As I was getting ready to leave, I decided to ask him once more about the enemies of a man of knowledge. I argued that I could not return for some time, and it would be a good idea to write down what he had to say and then think about it while I was away. He hesitated for a while, but then began to talk.

"When a man starts to learn, he is never clear about his objectives. His purpose is faulty; his intent is vague. He hopes for rewards that will never materialize, for he knows nothing of the hardships of learning. "He slowly begins to learn... bit by bit at first, then in big chunks. And his thoughts soon clash. What he learns is never what he pictured, or imagined, and so he begins to be afraid. Learning is never what one expects. Every step of learning is a new task, and the fear the man is experiencing begins to mount mercilessly, unyieldingly. His purpose becomes a battlefield.

"And thus he has tumbled upon the first of his natural enemies: Fear!

A terrible enemy... treacherous, and difficult to overcome. It remains concealed at every turn of the way, prowling... waiting. And if the man, terrified in its presence, runs away, his enemy will have put an end to his quest."
"What will happen to the man if he runs away in fear?"
"Nothing happens to him except that he will never learn. He will never become a man of knowledge. He will perhaps be a bully or a harmless, scared man; at any rate, he will be a defeated man. His first enemy will have put an end to his cravings."
"And what can he do to overcome fear?"
"The answer is very simple. He must not run away. He must defy his fear, and in spite of it he must take the next step in learning, and the next, and the next. He must be fully afraid, and yet he must not stop. That is the rule! And a moment will come when his first enemy retreats. The man begins to feel sure of himself. His intent becomes stronger. Learning is no longer a terrifying task. "When this joyful moment comes, the man can say without hesitation that he has defeated his first natural enemy."

"Does it happen at once, don Juan, or little by little?"
"It happens little by little, and yet the fear is vanquished suddenly and fast."
"But won’t the man be afraid again if something new happens to him?"
"No. Once a man has vanquished fear, he is free from it for the rest of his life because, instead of fear, he has acquired clarity... a clarity of mind which erases fear. By then a man knows his desires; he knows how to satisfy those desires. He can anticipate the new steps of learning, and a sharp clarity surrounds everything. The man feels that nothing is concealed.

"And thus he has encountered his second enemy: Clarity!

That clarity of mind, which is so hard to obtain, dispels fear, but also blinds. "It forces the man never to doubt himself. It gives him the assurance he can do anything he pleases, for he sees clearly into everything. And he is courageous because he is clear, and he stops at nothing because he is clear. But all that is a mistake; it is like something incomplete. If the man yields to this make-believe power, he has succumbed to his second enemy and will fumble with learning. He will rush when he should be patient, or he will be patient when he should rush. And he will fumble with learning until he winds up incapable of learning anything more."


"What becomes of a man who is defeated in that way, don Juan? Does he die as a result?"
"No, he doesn’t die. His second enemy has just stopped him cold from trying to become a man of knowledge; instead, the man may turn into a buoyant warrior, or a clown. Yet the clarity for which he has paid so dearly will never change to darkness and fear again. He will be clear as long as he lives, but he will no longer learn, or yearn for, anything."

"But what does he have to do to avoid being defeated?"
"He must do what he did with fear: he must defy his clarity and use it only to see, and wait patiently and measure carefully before taking new steps; he must think, above all, that his clarity is almost a mistake. And a moment will come when he will understand that his clarity was only a point before his eyes. And thus he will have overcome his second enemy, and will arrive at a position where nothing can harm him any more. This will not be a mistake. It will not be only a point before his eyes. It will be true power. "He will know at this point that the power he has been pursuing for so long is finally his. He can do with it whatever he pleases. His ally is at his command. His wish is the rule. He sees all that is around him.

But he has also come across his third enemy: Power! ..."

Of course, there is more to his rendition of what Life's PROCESS entails. See http://www.tekgnostics.com/JUAN.HTM for more related to the above point.


That being said, here's an an article titled "Why you can't find what you are looking for" which 'seekers' might find interesting. It include some very practical advice, I think:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen...b_5072338.html

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Ahh ... the 'bubble' of Awareness and Knowledge pertaining to what one is 'Aware' of or might yet become 'Aware' of.

I think that's all one can do in the present moment ... be aware of what they are aware of that pertains to what they are .

What they are that is realized or what they are that they think they are without realization .

Peeps suggesting one not to seek that which is not realized is likened to saying their wallet is not lost, you just don't know where it is .. lol ..


x daz x

[markings]

Originally Posted by iamthat

It is true that the realisation of Oneness is the realisation of what we already are. We are that state whether we realise it or not.

That is where paralysis resides.

"We are that state whether we realise it or not" - true except we are not exclusively that state, we are that state plus stuff, and this means we are in a different state.
Therefore to say "we are that state" is not correct. It ignores a huge part of what we are and what we do.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I think that's all one can do in the present moment ... be aware of what they are aware of that pertains to what they are .

What they are that is realized or what they are that they think they are without realization .

Peeps suggesting one not to seek that which is not realized is likened to saying their wallet is not lost, you just don't know where it is .. lol ..

x daz x

Right on, Bro! Not only that, peeps who know and have their hands on what's 'in' their wallet often think that THAT's the 'epitome' of THE Cat's Meeow - and so hold onto and 'use' it like a kid uses a 'security blanket' - so as to not honestly/creatively encounter and deal (a la "If you're given a lemon, make lemonade!" ) with it. Understandably, so since littluns are naturally averse to things that are not 'warm' (i.e. not to their 'liking').

This certainly doesn't apply to all self-labelled Self-realized folks, however. Their are always exceptions in any truth-saying regard. Am just saying that many such strike me as being passive (because frightened?) 'kids' who, instead of creatively/actively making the most (the 'best' that is possible) out of Life's exigencies - creatively solving and enjoying the fruits of solving real 'problems' that beset them and others - just sit around sucking their thumbs in bubbles of 'I' am 'THAT' 'bliss'.

Please know that I am quite AWARE that most peeps will find the things I say discomfiting. Cuz I am like a spiritual 'drill'-sergeant zeroing in on spiritual 'cavities'. So encountering 'me' can be like 'going to the dentist', not exactly 'fun' if your gums and teeth aren't in good shape.

"The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head sees the world spinning round!" Shiva is opening 'his' Third Eye, folks. And you know what that means! If not: see https://www.quora.com/According-to-H...rd-eye-and-why )

OORAH! It's time for Truth, with a capital T. behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Just telling it like I 'see' IT, frightening as that may be to those who are not 'ready' to handle it!

Hey, but visit to/with a cosmic dentist can be spirit-'awakening' (inspiring?) and 'healthy' tooth-and-gum practices motivating, aye what?

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by markings

That is where paralysis resides.

"We are that state whether we realise it or not" - true except we are not exclusively that state, we are that state plus stuff, and this means we are in a different state.
Therefore to say "we are that state" is not correct. It ignores a huge part of what we are and what we do.

Right on, Man! Though I would suggest substituting "signficant and very functionally important" for the word "huge', though that is exactly what I personally took you to mean.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Right on, Bro! Not only that, peeps who know and have their hands on what's 'in' their wallet often think that THAT's the 'epitome' of THE Cat's Meeow - and so hold onto and 'use' it like a kid uses a 'security blanket' - so as to not honestly/creatively encounter and deal (a la "If you're given a lemon, make lemonade!" ) with it. Understandably, so since littluns are naturally averse to things that are not 'warm' (i.e. not to their 'liking').

This certainly doesn't apply to all self-labelled Self-realized folks, however. Their are always exceptions in any truth-saying regard. Am just saying that many such strike me as being passive (because frightened?) 'kids' who, instead of creatively/actively making the most (the 'best' that is possible) out of Life's exigencies - creatively solving and enjoying the fruits of solving real 'problems' that beset them and others - just sit around sucking their thumbs in bubbles of 'I' am 'THAT' 'bliss'.

Please know that I am quite AWARE that most peeps will find the things I say discomfiting. Cuz I am like a spiritual 'drill'-sergeant zeroing in on spiritual 'cavities'. So encountering 'me' can be like 'going to the dentist', not exactly 'fun' if your gums and teeth aren't in good shape.

"The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head sees the world spinning round!" Shiva is opening 'his' Third Eye, folks. And you know what that means! If not: see https://www.quora.com/According-to-H...rd-eye-and-why )

OORAH! It's time for Truth, with a capital T. behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Just telling it like I 'see' IT, frightening as that may be to those who are not 'ready' to handle it!

Hey, but visit to/with a cosmic dentist can be spirit-'awakening' (inspiring?) and 'healthy' tooth-and-gum practices motivating, aye what?

I don't mind a hard driller killer dentist approach at times



x daz x