Tell Me about Witches...

Originally Posted by norseman

Cross purposes there, Lunacie. When I say Traditional Witchcraft, I mean the path that existed for many centuries before Gardner.

That path was never called Wicca though, eh? I'm never quite sure which you're referring to as you seem to use Wicca and Witchcraft interchangably.

Originally Posted by tilia

Hi Nightowl...

Something to ponder on this.... is it "nature" or "nurture" tho... I grew up thinking nothing of talking about the last nights dreams. My mum would just say at the breakfast table "Oh milkman came last night and left a pink banana" or my dad would say "we had an elephant in the living room last night"... it wasn't even explained that it was a dream, it was understood. I have very vivid dreams and I have since learnt that the more you talk about and acknowledge your dreams the more you will remember.

My mother is christian and doesn't like anything that relates to the supernatural, and my dad is a closet agnostic pretending to be atheist.... so there is no coersion from them, simply a lighthearted banter about dreams.

Only recently did I learn that these sorts of conversations are not "normal" at people's breakfast tables... and since leaving home I have pretty much stopped remembering my dreams.

So, are "abilities" in your bloodline, or is it that because they were accepted as "normal" yours were't stunted by parents that think the ramblings of a child are silly?

I could be waaaay off, but maybe something to ponder.....

Hey tilla,
I understand what your saying and I agree with it pretty much. I have had other suggest the same thing to me.

The funny thing about how they were in my family was;

We never really talked about abilities or dreams and such it was like it just was part of who we are, does that make any sense?

Example, my mother and grandmother just had this thing where they could see right through people, they knew what people really were, as we would say they could see right through them. It was never taught and it seems to be inherited. Because both my sister and myself and our children can do the same. Now honestly I know my kids have said the same to me and I have made it a purpose for them to understand such things, but it wasn't like that for me, my sister or my mother. Now my grandmother may have understood it more and just through her influence of helping raise us we picked up on it. But there was really no instruction or conversation other the the subtleties, it just came with the family. So maybe it was taught just not in a blatant way????

nightowl

[norseman]

Originally Posted by Lunacie

That path was never called Wicca though, eh? I'm never quite sure which you're referring to as you seem to use Wicca and Witchcraft interchangably.

A good example of the differences. Actually, it was never called witchcraft either - Witch Craft or Craft of the Wise, or simply the Craft. Even wicca has a Craft foundation. Words are a poor way to express meanings

Originally it was the Cunning or Wise Folk who practiced the Craft of the Wise.
Well, you did ask

It sounds like a broad ranging term to me, witch...

Norseman,

So where do you see the Druids in all of this? I tend to think of them as the wise folk, pre-chrisitian?


nightowl

[norseman]

The Wise/Cunning Folk originated as tribal shaman with the Hunter-Gatherer tribes of Europe. Shamanic artifacts have been recovered from the sea bottom of the North Sea which finally flooded in about 6000 BC, making Britain an island.
The first mention of Druids is in second century BC, four centuries after the Celts arrived. Interesting snippet ! According to one academic, Donald A. McKenzie in Buddhism in pre-christian Britain, the original druids were not native to Britain and were buddhist "missionaries" sent by the Indian King Ashok. They were then taught Celtic culture and mysteries by the Welsh Cunning Folk, the Cymry Gwyddoniad. The druids then became, de-facto, advisers, judges, teachers, and spiritual leaders to the Celtic tribes. They became an alternative source of authority to the Roman administration, a situation which the Romans would not accept. So, much false propaganda from the Romans - blood sacrifices, sacrifices of children, etc leading to war.
They were pushed back by the Roman legions into Mona [Anglesey] and "slaughtered" [according to the Romans !]. There are suggestions that many druids made their way to Ireland via the Isle of Man and returned to Britain after the legions left. The end of that same tale is that they blended with the Celtic Christian church who were an odd christian sect much given to worshipping things like springs, caves, trees, etc i.e. animist and almost pagan themselves. The Celtic church lost out to the Roman Catholic church at the Synod of Whitby and faded from sight. However, more than a thousand years later, they pop up again - Gerald Gardner and Ross Nichol [who founded the largest order of British Druids] were both ordained christian priests of an obscure Celtic Church.
What goes around, comes around

Almost forgot, another snippet about the word "druid" which seems to support the Indian connection.
The proto-celtic stem of the word is Druwid
which has two Indo-European roots - deru and weid
Deru meaning oak but also to be firm, solid, steadfast, and true
Weid meaning to see, or sight, wit, also knowledge

So Druwid could be translated as True Knowledge.

Originally Posted by norseman

The Wise/Cunning Folk originated as tribal shaman with the Hunter-Gatherer tribes of Europe. Shamanic artifacts have been recovered from the sea bottom of the North Sea which finally flooded in about 6000 BC, making Britain an island.
The first mention of Druids is in second century BC, four centuries after the Celts arrived. Interesting snippet ! According to one academic, Donald A. McKenzie in Buddhism in pre-christian Britain, the original druids were not native to Britain and were buddhist "missionaries" sent by the Indian King Ashok. They were then taught Celtic culture and mysteries by the Welsh Cunning Folk, the Cymry Gwyddoniad. The druids then became, de-facto, advisers, judges, teachers, and spiritual leaders to the Celtic tribes. They became an alternative source of authority to the Roman administration, a situation which the Romans would not accept. So, much false propaganda from the Romans - blood sacrifices, sacrifices of children, etc leading to war.
They were pushed back by the Roman legions into Mona [Anglesey] and "slaughtered" [according to the Romans !]. There are suggestions that many druids made their way to Ireland via the Isle of Man and returned to Britain after the legions left. The end of that same tale is that they blended with the Celtic Christian church who were an odd christian sect much given to worshipping things like springs, caves, trees, etc i.e. animist and almost pagan themselves. The Celtic church lost out to the Roman Catholic church at the Synod of Whitby and faded from sight. However, more than a thousand years later, they pop up again - Gerald Gardner and Ross Nichol [who founded the largest order of British Druids] were both ordained christian priests of an obscure Celtic Church.
What goes around, comes around

Almost forgot, another snippet about the word "druid" which seems to support the Indian connection.
The proto-celtic stem of the word is Druwid
which has two Indo-European roots - deru and weid
Deru meaning oak but also to be firm, solid, steadfast, and true
Weid meaning to see, or sight, wit, also knowledge

So Druwid could be translated as True Knowledge.

Fascinating!! Thanks for sharing all that

Think I'll call my next dog Deru

Here's a mug shot of my present one, Cayce... she's female but named after Edgar

I will add to Norseman's posts by saying there are those pagans that don't tend to consider themselves witches or wiccan. I for one rarely do anything that would be considered spell work in the classical sense, I don't do rituals unless it is a VERY important situation, I don't cast circles and I don't use tools other than some incense to send prayers. Although I do have all the normal bits and pieces that I collected over the year.

I consider myself an eclectic pagan, the themes in my path come from many directions, for instance my god representation on my alter is a Buddha and my goddess is Bastet (as my cats are very important to me)... but even then I tend to see the male and female aspects as the important thing rather than the representation.

My path is about healing and growth, not about spell work or divination, although I do use oracle cards at times.

I believe there are pagans that follow similar paths and they can be considered "wiccan" or "druid" or "heathen" but there are more that follow their own path.

I, like Norseman, run a forum for pagans and at times we have had discussions about what we consider the core points that allow us to recognise a pagan (as we are very picky about who we have in our small group) and we have come to the conclusion that the important parts are a connection to the land and acknowledging the importance of the turn of the seasons... beyond that it's fair game.

We have some that don't even believe in a specific higher power but more an "all that is" sort of thing, but because their connection to the land and the cycle of the seasons we can tell that there is a pagan thread.

So, although this thread was about witches, I think it is important to show that there are some that are pagan but do not consider themselves witches.

There are also those that have not been taught the history of paganism, are not really interested in it, but are interested in connecting to the land and learning from what it has to say. There is very little "study", very little theory, just a simple connection that can be found from sitting under a tree and listening to the words it whispers in your ear.

There are covens out there, my soul sis is in one and I have known other people to be in them, but you tend to find that those that are don't advertise it, they don't generally join forums and their covens are very secret. One reason being that if "wannabes" hear about covens they nag people to join.

Originally Posted by norseman

The Wise/Cunning Folk originated as tribal shaman with the Hunter-Gatherer tribes of Europe. Shamanic artifacts have been recovered from the sea bottom of the North Sea which finally flooded in about 6000 BC, making Britain an island.
The first mention of Druids is in second century BC, four centuries after the Celts arrived. Interesting snippet ! According to one academic, Donald A. McKenzie in Buddhism in pre-christian Britain, the original druids were not native to Britain and were buddhist "missionaries" sent by the Indian King Ashok. They were then taught Celtic culture and mysteries by the Welsh Cunning Folk, the Cymry Gwyddoniad. The druids then became, de-facto, advisers, judges, teachers, and spiritual leaders to the Celtic tribes. They became an alternative source of authority to the Roman administration, a situation which the Romans would not accept. So, much false propaganda from the Romans - blood sacrifices, sacrifices of children, etc leading to war.
They were pushed back by the Roman legions into Mona [Anglesey] and "slaughtered" [according to the Romans !]. There are suggestions that many druids made their way to Ireland via the Isle of Man and returned to Britain after the legions left. The end of that same tale is that they blended with the Celtic Christian church who were an odd christian sect much given to worshipping things like springs, caves, trees, etc i.e. animist and almost pagan themselves. The Celtic church lost out to the Roman Catholic church at the Synod of Whitby and faded from sight. However, more than a thousand years later, they pop up again - Gerald Gardner and Ross Nichol [who founded the largest order of British Druids] were both ordained christian priests of an obscure Celtic Church.
What goes around, comes around

Almost forgot, another snippet about the word "druid" which seems to support the Indian connection.
The proto-celtic stem of the word is Druwid
which has two Indo-European roots - deru and weid
Deru meaning oak but also to be firm, solid, steadfast, and true
Weid meaning to see, or sight, wit, also knowledge

So Druwid could be translated as True Knowledge.

Thanks norseman for sharing this info...they are close to my heart...

nightowl

[norseman]

"There are also those that have not been taught the history of paganism, are not really interested in it, but are interested in connecting to the land and learning from what it has to say. There is very little "study", very little theory, just a simple connection that can be found from sitting under a tree and listening to the words it whispers in your ear."

Almost forty years for me, Tilia. Just wandering, observing, FEELING - most important. My path is not intellectual, it is much more emotional and deeper than thought. The Land OWNS me, I don't own the Land.

Thought you might be interested in this extract from a very long post I did a few years back. This is just a small part of it
************************************************** **************************************************
"Finally, a location which is purely my idea. And for this, I go right back to the beginning of the Cunning Folk as people who worked very close to nature and the emphasis placed on nature by Cymry Gwyddoniad. Cunning Folk who watched the land, the sky, living and growing things. Who acted as guardians to the Land. In this location, I identify literally millions of Cunning Folk. Those who know what they are and those who do not know but still carry out the duties. I refer to everyone who loves nature even if it is only their own garden. People who plant and tend to the flora and fauna, people who put up feeding and nesting boxes for birds – they all project positive energies to the Earth and Mother Earth is glad to receive them. There are many more people who must be in the outdoors, rambling the moors and dales away from the cities – they cannot not do it. Their energies are stronger and they project it without knowing why – they just do – the unconscious Cunning Folk. If I wanted to draw up levels of Initiate, then the next group would be third level. These are the volunteer workers who care for both Land and flora and fauna. They add the energy of commitment to their positive energies and act as agents of Mother Earth in protecting part of her.
Finally, there are the many people who know exactly what they are – Servants of Mother Earth, the eco-warriors. People who take Mother Earth as their deity and carry out Earth-centered rituals while caring and protecting the land and its living things. Acting as guardians of the future and attempting to restore what has been lost.
This is my path. It’s a path with a long lineage. It connects us to our past and our long-distant ancestors. We Cunning Folk never vanished, we are still here doing what we have always done.
The truth of the Cunning Folk ? It is so simple that it hides in plain sight as always. We are the Knowing Folk who seek just a little bit further than what we see in front of our faces.
Norseman Sept 09.
Vardmadr, vinr !"