Who or what died on the cross?

I think often times people confuse "fulfilled" with the term "not used" because if the law was fulfilled that by no means makes it obsolete and not usable
Infact it's the opposite it makes it finished in the since of how if a person finishes building his custom race car now he can actually race and because it's completed he can win the race whereas before he might not do so well if it's missing a couple of bolts here and there LOL

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

3.I loved how you captured what it must have been like for Christ suffering on the cross-being completely cut off from God. Ive often thought or at least tried to imagine it from Christs perspective-I think you nailed it.

Bit of an unfortunate choice of phrase there

Originally Posted by Gem

Firstly, let me say that no-one knows who or what died on the cross.

It is a common reference in Christianinty to be 'born again', but I'm more interested in who or what dies to enable this peculiarity of rebirth. Being "born again' is obviously in reference to Christ dying on the cross only to rise again in eternal life.

The who: Yeshua of Nazareth, son of Mary of Nazareth.Son of God of the ALL in ALL.

The what: That which hangs on the tree is cursed.
Yeshua's flesh hung on the tree and was cursed.
The Greek for flesh is as follows.

Strong's No.: G4561
Greek: σάρξ
Transliteration: sarx
Phonetic: sarx
Word Origin: Probably from the base of G4563
Bible Usage: carnal (-ly + -ly minded) flesh ([-ly]).
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Strongs
Definition:
flesh (as stripped of the skin) that is (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food) or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit) or as the symbol of what is external or as the means of kindred or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions) or (specifically) a human being (as such)

Thayers
Definition:
1. flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

2. the body

a. the body of a man

b. used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship

1. born of natural generation

c. the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"

1. without any suggestion of depravity

2. the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin

3. the physical nature of man as subject to suffering

3. a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

4. the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

The root word of sarx is:

Strong's No.: G4563
Greek: σαρόω
Transliteration: saroō
Phonetic: sar-o'-o
Word Origin: From a derivative of σαιρω sairō (to brush off
Bible Usage: sweep.
Part of Speech: Verb
Strongs
Definition:
akin to G4951) meaning a broom; to sweep

Thayers
Definition:
1. to sweep, clean by sweeping

So the instructions of Christ are:
Deny yourself pick up your cross and follow Him.
My interpretation: Deny the flesh and it's cravings and the ego
sacrifice yourself through the Love of God with the soul and Spirit
and follow Yeshua's Way of Love, which is God's Divine Love.
Those born of the flesh are flesh and those born of the Spirit
are Spirit.

The flesh and it's craving are cursed.Live in the Love of the Spirit
which is pure and innocent like a swaddling babe.

[white pegasus]

a human bring-I reread my post-I meant no disrespect towards Christ being nailed to the cross-Gems initial post really provoked many thoughts for me-once again trying to imagine what it was like for Christ.

in my humble opinion-oerhaps the worst of it for Him was feeling completely seperated from his Father.

again I meant no disrespect

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by Gem

Firstly, let me say that no-one knows who or what died on the cross. The best we can do is pretend knowledge by repeating what we have been told. I want to resist such pretense and reiteration and examine how the imagery of the crucifixion generates a narrative about death as the means of eternal life.



It is a common reference in Christianinty to be 'born again', but I'm more interested in who or what dies to enable this peculiarity of rebirth. Being "born again' is obviously in reference to Christ dying on the cross only to rise again in eternal life

Similarly, before a person is re-born in Christ he is far from God, and it is this furthest distance that make possible his rebirth, it is only because one is forsaken and abandoned to death that he may be born again to everlasting life.


This is also lllustrated in the stories of the lost sheep and the prodigal son. The one who strays furthest is the shepherd's, or the Father's, most treasured. The stories re-affirm the notion that it is being furthest away that makes one closest. Christ on the cross is the most extreme example where God forsook Himself and simultaneusly lost faith in Himself to perform the ultimate act of love. By abandoning Himself to agonising faithlessness and death, He gifted Himself life everlasting as He who he manifested in His Image. Namely the image of Man, the Son, He who died on the cross.



There are more stories in the Bible that confirm this notion. For example, Christ (who is God) took with Him to heaven not a clean living pious worshipping man, but a dirty-rotton thief. The story of the phariseas in the temple conversely illustrated that those who are closest to God, the most pious worshippers among us, are in fact those who are furthest away.


Consider that before you contribute here as a good Christian. To truly be Christlike in his defining moment one much be most akin with Satan, and it is through this descent into hell that one rises to eternal life in heaven

Gem,

I like the challenge you put before us. I regret the nature of some of the responses to your posting that characterized it as some attack on Christianity. The nit picking over certain specifics....some of which also troubled me to some extent.....seemed to ignore your basic questions.

In regards to being 'born again' I have always viewed this as dying to the ego. The story of the Garden of Eden is a clear demonstration that the emergence of the ego was the cause of the original separation of man from God.

The 'furthest distance' from God must be experienced and realized to re-establish a relationship with God. It signifies the point in life when one realizes that he cannot survive without the help of God. This was the realization that the tax collector had when he said...."God, have mercy on me, a sinner"......Luke 18:9-14. This was the turning point for the tax collector when he acknowledged his distance from God and Jesus commended him for the tax collector's sharing of this revelation.

In short, God is attracted to those who surrender their ego and sense of self-importance and their reliance on self and demonstrate willingness to place their full trust on God. Saying this I would suggest that rather than a descent into hell being a necessity that a way of avoiding hell is open to all.....this being that a recognition of that which separates us from God.

I think it is instructive to remember Isaiah prophesying about Christ...."he poured out his soul unto death"....Isaiah 53:12. The 'soul' indicates all the life experiences of the incarnated Christ from this world. It was necessary for Christ to purge Himself of all these influences to ascend to the heavenly realms(the Kingdom of Heaven/God). This surrender of 'soul' makes possible the ascent into heaven.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

a human bring-I reread my post-I meant no disrespect towards Christ being nailed to the cross-Gems initial post really provoked many thoughts for me-once again trying to imagine what it was like for Christ.

in my humble opinion-oerhaps the worst of it for Him was feeling completely seperated from his Father.

again I meant no disrespect

I know you didn't, just an unfortunate choice of words in this context