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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Taoism

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  #11  
Old 20-06-2011, 04:19 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Even wikipedia could have set you right there:



The Tao does indeed mean the way as a path, but even if it didn't, simple acceptance is not the only lesson of Tao Te Ching! And even less of Taoism generally.

I learn from long hours of still silence... and the temporal change occcurs as I remain on the very brink of creation and destruction as the moment this unfolds is the very same one in which it ceases, so the path is the organized structure of retrospect which does not exist at all beyond the mindful recollection of what was, for even the imagined projection of the path before us is a thought which immediately passes.

For this reason I am pretty sure the way pertains to 'the way it is'.. so i'm going with the loose definition of 'principle'
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  #12  
Old 20-06-2011, 05:25 PM
TzuJanLi
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Greetings..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Even wikipedia could have set you right there:



The Tao does indeed mean the way as a path, but even if it didn't, simple acceptance is not the only lesson of Tao Te Ching! And even less of Taoism generally.
The 'path' to which you refer, is the one that leads you realize "truth is a pathless land".. you may find comfort in ritualistic Taoist practices, a 'path' that works for some people..

As an understanding of Tao, 'the way things are' is not simple acceptance.. it is a diligent study of nature and the interactive relationships that weave this experience we know as Life.. the Tao which i have related with for the last 40 years is a process of understanding Life, not a 'path' to travel but a 'way' to perceive and experience.. but, that is the beauty of Tao, it takes the shape of the vessel that would contain it.. "the way things are", like Tao, is unconfined and open-ended, as each experiencer's unique perspective adds to a more complete and coherent awareness of Tao..

Be well..
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  #13  
Old 20-06-2011, 05:58 PM
Prokopton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I learn from long hours of still silence...

Yes, but you don't have Chinese etymology lessons during that silence unless I'm much mistaken. No doubt you can make room for the term 'Tao' in your philosophy on these terms, but 'Tao' in Chinese actually means 'way' or 'path', and I think they decided to name the tradition that way for a reason... You have an excellent understanding of your own path, of course, but what you are talking about is not what the Taoists tend to mean by the word 'Tao', which is really the question here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
you may find comfort in ritualistic Taoist practices, a 'path' that works for some people.

In my case it is not a question of 'comfort' (no spiritual path is that simply, if real -- and you know it well I would imagine, so why bring it up?) but of a transformative alchemical practice. It works well alongside other practices too...

Nor is the ch'i kung and deep meditation I practice 'ritual', exactly, unless you think the t'ai chi you practice is too. Pejorative use of 'ritual' (usually intended to imply mindless dogma for the unfree) makes no account of how the patterns of Nature and Tao can be traced in practices of many kinds...

The idea that 'truth is a pathless land' (which Krishnamurti intended to dissolve dogma I think) could too easily be stretched to mean there is no difference at all between one path and another, since all must lead to the same place in roughly the same way, aka 'hard perennialism' -- a dogma in its own right and one that actually contradicts the original Krishnamurti idea, it seems to me. After all, Taoist sorcery and Taoist inner alchemy are not the same thing. Although they have some things in common of course...

Quote:
As an understanding of Tao, 'the way things are' is not simple acceptance.. it is a diligent study of nature and the interactive relationships that weave this experience we know as Life..

Yes, that's exactly what it is... I agree with you 100%. That's a good definition of 'Tao' in a nutshell.

The Taoist Inner Alchemy practices were born of precisely that deep level of observation. If you would care to, you could learn more.

Mind you there are very interesting Taoist ritual/deity practices too. Michael Saso has written about some interesting experiences. And they equally are born of such observation. Taoism does not really have a concept of heresy.
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  #14  
Old 20-06-2011, 05:59 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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In my mind, thinking out loud here.........total acceptance of the way things are would have to include not accepting the way things are............if that was the way things are.
So in essence total acceptance is a pathless path which looks alot like just plain ol living.
James
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  #15  
Old 20-06-2011, 11:17 PM
TzuJanLi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
what the Taoists tend to mean by the word 'Tao', which is really the question here.
My mentors describe their understandings similarly to the following: That the originators of Taoist thinking chose 'the way' so as to avoid codification and ritualization.. asserting a process of self-realization through experiential discovery, and.. building on previous practical results..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
In my case it is not a question of 'comfort' (no spiritual path is that simply, if real -- and you know it well I would imagine, so why bring it up?) but of a transformative alchemical practice. It works well alongside other practices too...

Nor is the ch'i kung and deep meditation I practice 'ritual', exactly, unless you think the t'ai chi you practice is too. Pejorative use of 'ritual' (usually intended to imply mindless dogma for the unfree) makes no account of how the patterns of Nature and Tao can be traced in practices of many kinds...

The idea that 'truth is a pathless land' (which Krishnamurti intended to dissolve dogma I think) could too easily be stretched to mean there is no difference at all between one path and another, since all must lead to the same place in roughly the same way, aka 'hard perennialism' -- a dogma in its own right and one that actually contradicts the original Krishnamurti idea, it seems to me. After all, Taoist sorcery and Taoist inner alchemy are not the same thing. Although they have some things in common of course...
I have not communicated as well as i had intended.. and, you are assuming intent not present..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Yes, that's exactly what it is... I agree with you 100%. That's a good definition of 'Tao' in a nutshell.
Thanks, i appreciate affirmation and challenge equally..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
The Taoist Inner Alchemy practices were born of precisely that deep level of observation. If you would care to, you could learn more.
I am more than casually familiar with 'Taoist Internal Alchemy' processes, having sifted much chaff from grain..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Mind you there are very interesting Taoist ritual/deity practices too. Michael Saso has written about some interesting experiences. And they equally are born of such observation. Taoism does not really have a concept of heresy.
More than the observations, it is the preconceptions and intentions that result in usefulness.. and, if there is a 'heresy', it is in the usefulness or lack thereof of a method..

Be well..
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  #16  
Old 21-06-2011, 12:56 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Yes, but you don't have Chinese etymology lessons during that silence unless I'm much mistaken. No doubt you can make room for the term 'Tao' in your philosophy on these terms, but 'Tao' in Chinese actually means 'way' or 'path', and I think they decided to name the tradition that way for a reason... You have an excellent understanding of your own path, of course, but what you are talking about is not what the Taoists tend to mean by the word 'Tao', which is really the question here.

I only kniow that a life path isn't a way to anywhere particular ans such notions as all paths lead to thesame place is some invented sentiment more that factual, so it isn't really much to do with weather this experience of that experience being spiritual or material. These are considered to be passing temporance in equal measure.



Quote:
In my case it is not a question of 'comfort' (no spiritual path is that simply, if real -- and you know it well I would imagine, so why bring it up?) but of a transformative alchemical practice. It works well alongside other practices too...

Nor is the ch'i kung and deep meditation I practice 'ritual', exactly, unless you think the t'ai chi you practice is too. Pejorative use of 'ritual' (usually intended to imply mindless dogma for the unfree) makes no account of how the patterns of Nature and Tao can be traced in practices of many kinds...

The idea that 'truth is a pathless land' (which Krishnamurti intended to dissolve dogma I think) could too easily be stretched to mean there is no difference at all between one path and another, since all must lead to the same place in roughly the same way, aka 'hard perennialism' -- a dogma in its own right and one that actually contradicts the original Krishnamurti idea, it seems to me. After all, Taoist sorcery and Taoist inner alchemy are not the same thing. Although they have some things in common of course...

The practice is like practicing the piano, so routine and dilligence is the best approach, but it isn't important to practice the piano tai chi or mediation, it's just a love of it that evokes some passion passion for it, or perhaps for healing where one has a few issues.

Quote:
Yes, that's exactly what it is... I agree with you 100%. That's a good definition of 'Tao' in a nutshell.

The Taoist Inner Alchemy practices were born of precisely that deep level of observation. If you would care to, you could learn more.

Mind you there are very interesting Taoist ritual/deity practices too. Michael Saso has written about some interesting experiences. And they equally are born of such observation. Taoism does not really have a concept of heresy.

The Tao means the way, so I guess anyone can make what they want of it.
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  #17  
Old 21-06-2011, 11:21 AM
Prokopton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Pejorative use of 'ritual'
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
you are assuming intent not present

Well I may be mistaking you, if you say that:

Quote:
That the originators of Taoist thinking chose 'the way' so as to avoid codification and ritualization

... then it appears the essence of Tao is freedom from 'ritualization', and ritual in general is not a word I've never seen you use positively.

Still, everything else you say is certainly true. The origins of the Tao seem to some scholars now to be as much shamanic as philosophical, but as for what Taoists (or I) would call 'Tao', your definition is spot on, as I say.

Quote:
More than the observations, it is the preconceptions and intentions that result in usefulness..

Please elaborate if you feel like it -- which preconceptions and intentions are useful in your opinion, or result in usefulness, and which don't? (Or according to your opinion of Taoist opinion?) Personally I don't think preconceptions or intentions always determine usefulness, nor do I think that it is possible to say which preconceptions and intentions are bound to result in usefulness and which are not. (Although as always with the Tao, we can notice patterns.)

Quote:
if there is a 'heresy', it is in the usefulness or lack thereof of a method..

There isn't, as I said. Usefulness or lack is simply that -- although extremely important of course, it doesn't need to have a connotation of heresy, which implies 'only one correct way' or deviation therefrom. I think we probably agree that the idea of 'only one correct way' is not really at home in the Taoist tradition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I only kniow that a life path isn't a way to anywhere particular ans such notions as all paths lead to thesame place is some invented sentiment more that factual, so it isn't really much to do with weather this experience of that experience being spiritual or material. These are considered to be passing temporance in equal measure.

I'm not saying all these are wrong Gem, just that what the Taoists such as Lao-Tzu meant by Tao is much more as defined by TzuJanLi -- the universal, macrocosmic self-creating complex system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
The Tao means the way, so I guess anyone can make what they want of it.

Exactly, 'Tao' and all its associated concepts (such as yin/yang, the 5 elements, etc.) were always open to the use of all and the means of a lot of experiment -- just exactly as with western notions that grew from similar brews of shamanism and philosophy. The only proviso, as TzuJanLi mentioned, might be that something which turns out to work is probably better than something that doesn't!
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  #18  
Old 25-06-2011, 03:40 AM
TzuJanLi
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Greetings..

I said: "That the originators of Taoist thinking chose 'the way' so as to avoid codification and ritualization", to which you reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
... then it appears the essence of Tao is freedom from 'ritualization', and ritual in general is not a word I've never seen you use positively.
The choice of the word, "Tao", meaning 'way' or 'path', as a 'description' of the understandings gained from direct experiences, as has been related to me, was chosen in part, to avoid codification or ritualization.. not because freedom from ritualization is the essence of Tao, but.. because of the likelihood that ritualization will distort the understanding of Tao, and therefore understanding its 'essence'. I'm not sure that your interpretation of my use of the word 'ritual' is accurate, or even 'useful' in this context..

What i said: "More than the observations, it is the preconceptions and intentions that result in usefulness.. and, if there is a 'heresy', it is in the usefulness or lack thereof of a method..".. and, in order to get the flavor of the intended communication, it is helpful to keep the phrasing intact.. you replied to the first portion of the phrase, as follows:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Please elaborate if you feel like it -- which preconceptions and intentions are useful in your opinion, or result in usefulness, and which don't? (Or according to your opinion of Taoist opinion?) Personally I don't think preconceptions or intentions always determine usefulness, nor do I think that it is possible to say which preconceptions and intentions are bound to result in usefulness and which are not. (Although as always with the Tao, we can notice patterns.)
Preconceptions and intentions result in varying degrees of usefulness, the point of the phrase is that 'usefulness' is not a valid criteria for 'clarity' or for a method.. ultimately, intention and preconception distort the clarity of awareness that reveals actual usefulness.. aside from that, i am reminded that "Tao is formless", inspiring a curiosity as to why you say "Although as always with the Tao, we can notice patterns."..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
There isn't, as I said. Usefulness or lack is simply that -- although extremely important of course, it doesn't need to have a connotation of heresy, which implies 'only one correct way' or deviation therefrom. I think we probably agree that the idea of 'only one correct way' is not really at home in the Taoist tradition.
Heresy, is to vary from the accepted doctrine.. there does seem to be a certain 'Doctrine of Tao', as in "always with Tao, we can notice patterns", and.. where there is an accepted doctrine (preconception), there is the potential for 'heresy'.. such that heresy, IF it exists, would be to establish usefulness as criteria for a 'method', when.. Tao, is simply 'the way things are', a condition not dependent on usefulness or a method, but.. which when seen or experienced clearly, Tao reveals which methods 'are' useful..

Be well..
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  #19  
Old 25-06-2011, 08:18 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Well I may be mistaking you, if you say that:



... then it appears the essence of Tao is freedom from 'ritualization', and ritual in general is not a word I've never seen you use positively.

Still, everything else you say is certainly true. The origins of the Tao seem to some scholars now to be as much shamanic as philosophical, but as for what Taoists (or I) would call 'Tao', your definition is spot on, as I say.



Please elaborate if you feel like it -- which preconceptions and intentions are useful in your opinion, or result in usefulness, and which don't? (Or according to your opinion of Taoist opinion?) Personally I don't think preconceptions or intentions always determine usefulness, nor do I think that it is possible to say which preconceptions and intentions are bound to result in usefulness and which are not. (Although as always with the Tao, we can notice patterns.)



There isn't, as I said. Usefulness or lack is simply that -- although extremely important of course, it doesn't need to have a connotation of heresy, which implies 'only one correct way' or deviation therefrom. I think we probably agree that the idea of 'only one correct way' is not really at home in the Taoist tradition.



I'm not saying all these are wrong Gem, just that what the Taoists such as Lao-Tzu meant by Tao is much more as defined by TzuJanLi -- the universal, macrocosmic self-creating complex system.



Exactly, 'Tao' and all its associated concepts (such as yin/yang, the 5 elements, etc.) were always open to the use of all and the means of a lot of experiment -- just exactly as with western notions that grew from similar brews of shamanism and philosophy. The only proviso, as TzuJanLi mentioned, might be that something which turns out to work is probably better than something that doesn't!

Wow. That sounds pretty farout "the universal, macrocosmic self-creating complex system."

Yes of course, if it works then then that's the way, like practicing the piano works and one can play music, there is no other way to learn piano but the doing of it, and there is something in that, because practice is only the persuit of perfection, so the journey is started knowing there is no actual end game, thus the path does not lead to the one who walks it.
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  #20  
Old 26-06-2011, 03:29 AM
pre-dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Ching
I was surprised to find that the Taoist have no spiritual practise, no meditation, nothing, they just try to be virtuous, whatever that means
When I read the Tao-Te-Ching I find no substantial philosophy...... The only message I can get from it is that you should be natural.
Wei-wu-wei, is both the Taoist practice and philosophy. Action through non-action, or action through no-effort. This means doing what needs to be done, or what one wants to do, without any excess of effort, power or strain. It does not mean no effort at all but to act with appropriate effort when the time is ripe. To work like that requires a relaxed mind and a keen awareness of what is going on inside and outside of oneself.
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