How Close is Science to Understanding Consciousness?

[guthrio]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello there Guthrio and yes, it is all very interesting, isn't it?

As to the above from Haramein, my response is that it's as true as it is non-specific
That is, the degree to which it (anything) is true for all tends to vary with the degree to which it is non-specific or non-individuated.
Put another way, truth applies both to the general and to the specific...but this may reflect very different aspects of truth



We may surmise (and/or conflate) a great many things, eh? Hahaha... ;)

Here, the "origins" of consciousness are ...
1) presumed to be quantifiable and perhaps to ultimately "arise" from the fabric of spacetime [this takes mainstream scientific dogma on consciousness but extended back to the origins of this local or latest instantiation of the universe. Rather than at the level of the organism where bio sciences focus. In any flavour, it is as yet wholly unsubstantiated start to end].
2) and then consciousness is "also" purported to be fundamental to the reality/existence of spacetime. In a sort of "integral to the soup", melting-pot ingredient sort of thing [this bit is not well accepted by much of mainstream science, although it is arguably baked into quantum mechanics, or cannot be fully parsed from it, whichever...

[...however, many of the most groundbreaking theorists do variously acknowledge that at core, consciousness is both fundamental and potentially beyond the scope of spacetime physics to explain causally -- which is quite frankly liberating in its humility and its search for the truth of what is...]

Haramein takes the position that consciousness is foundational to spacetime yet that its origins are located within the origins of spacetime, which seems circular. Though I appreciate his macro take on consciousness rather than the bio sciences focus on consciousness in the organism. It's a different scale, like looking at all physical life on earth versus whether or not you or I are alive.
However it still makes rather less sense to me than the deepest theorists' straightforward admission of the potential limits of the scope of a material science which is bound by spacetime. This admission resonates with wisdom traditions and observed data, both.

I would say it is far simpler. Consciousness is ...
1) clearly unbounded by and thus outside of (and thus again is antecedent to) spacetime.
2) and thus, yes, we may reasonably assume that it is therefore fundamental to either 1) the reality/existence of spacetime, 2) our experience of the reality/existence of spacetime, or (my vote) BOTH ;)

It will take time for mainstream science to accept what many of the greatest theorists have...which is that if consciousness is antecedent to spacetime then certain definitively causal data on the origins or boundaries of consciousness will not ever exist in spacetime. At that point, I believe we will be well on our way to better addressing some of the most fascinating questions on consciousness, spacetime, and our existence within these realms.

Perfect speed is being there...yes, nicely said

Peace & blessings,
7L

Hi 7luminaries,

I agree with you about the antecedence of Consciousness. Why?

When I first read the sentence in Haramein's article about spacetime/consciousness, "From this perspective, we may approach the phenomenon of consciousness as the process of expression and encoding of information in space-time...."

...a feeling told me that it should have read thus: "....we may approach the phenomenon of expression and encoding of information in space-time....as the process of consciousness"

When scientists finally conclude that their methodology of "uncovering the Truth" (thanks to my friend Weareunity for that wording) with experiments that result in verifying the Perfect Truth that has always been...

....they will then understand, at long last, why Chiang said in JLS, those"...who scorn perfection for the sake of travel go nowhere, slowly. Those who put aside travel for the sake of perfection go anywhere, instantly"...

There is no other where or no other place or no other time for scientists, or ourselves, to "uncover the Truth", except where It has always been, within us all.

Perfect speed is being there!

I offer an additional source to balance the need of scientists to maximize acceptance of physical data to support their experimental theories...in favor or realizing that there are more answers to be "uncovered" by the "inner mind", than will be found by over-reliance of the "conscious mind", buttressed with corresponding 'mathematical language' resulting in labor-intensive, often-faulty conclusions. See reference below:

Reference: https://findingseth.com/q/session:615+'conscious+mind'/

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by guthrio

Hi 7luminaries,

I agree with you about the antecedence of Consciousness. Why?

When I first read the sentence in Haramein's article about spacetime/consciousness, "From this perspective, we may approach the phenomenon of consciousness as the process of expression and encoding of information in space-time...."

...a feeling told me that it should have read thus: "....we may approach the phenomenon of expression and encoding of information in space-time....as the process of consciousness"

Agreed
Or, "...as the manifestation of consciousness in spacetime".

When scientists finally conclude that their methodology of "uncovering the Truth" (thanks to my friend Weareunity for that wording) with experiments that result in verifying the Perfect Truth that has always been...

....they will then understand, at long last, why Chiang said in JLS, those"...who scorn perfection for the sake of travel go nowhere, slowly. Those who put aside travel for the sake of perfection go anywhere, instantly"...

There is no other where or no other place or no other time for scientists, or ourselves, to "uncover the Truth", except where It has always been, within us all.

Perfect speed is being there!

We are all called to centre in this moment and discover that truth.

However, in this discussion, we could say that all objective truth, laws, & constants are just the reality of higher consciousness. I.e., that which is manifest by higher consciousness, including that which is manifest in spacetime.

Higher consciousness being more coherent and unified (entrained), whether "viewed" or apprehended by us as one, as union or as communion.

And thus, being more coherent and entrained, it is also more universal in manifest application (i.e, all physical and metaphysical/spiritual laws, constants, etc.).

And thus we come to perceive (ever more truly) that which we deem as objective reality and objective truth. Meaning, all that which is manifest by higher consciousness, including all that which is manifest in spacetime.

I offer an additional source to balance the need of scientists to maximize acceptance of physical data to support their experimental theories...in favor or realizing that there are more answers to be "uncovered" by the "inner mind", than will be found by over-reliance of the "conscious mind", buttressed with corresponding 'mathematical language' resulting in labor-intensive, often-faulty conclusions. See reference below:

Reference: https://findingseth.com/q/session:615+'conscious+mind'/

I will have to check out this link later. But I would broadly say that these maths and theorems can apply to what is manifest in physical spacetime and may absolutely be valid to the extent that they reflect our manifest objective physical reality in spacetime. However, they cannot reasonably be expected to pertain to what is beyond their scope.

Those objective truths (i.e., manifestations) of higher consciousness outside of spacetime are moral, ethical, social, and broadly spiritual truths, which fall into the realm of what we would call justice and lovingkindness. Interestingly, however, as we know, there are still a great many ways to at least very generally measure many indices of well-being and justice, or of suffering and injustice. And thus these (the social sciences) will no doubt continue to be a focus in our present age, alongside the physical sciences and what they contribute.

Peace & blessings
7L

[BodhiCris]

(newbie consuming this thread all at once = white knuckles and wide pupils)
Thank you all for this; epic read & I'll process for days to come...

[guthrio]

Originally Posted by BodhiCris

(newbie consuming this thread all at once = white knuckles and wide pupils)
Thank you all for this; epic read & I'll process for days to come...

Hi BodhiCris,

Welcome to Spiritual Forums!

Am glad you're enjoying your time here so far. I hope you realize that what you're reading is not nearly as important as the knowledge you apply your own way.

I predict you'll be showing us things no one else has considered...and Truth?...gotta admit there's nothing more fun than seeing something exciting from a new perspective, right? (How do you think we've done it)?

BTW: I like the icon myself; guess we gotta wait until SF builds one for "white knuckles"!!

Looking forward....

[guthrio]

Please disregard this post as an inadvertent duplicate of the one above. - Guthrio

[Ewwerrin]

I guess everything is consciousness. And so when scientists accept emotions as evidence. Then they can discover that way more easily. So rather than asking too much of science, make a bridge. By pointing towards the emotion as valid evidence and reality.
Energy in motion. E-motion. If you're gonna study everything, then there has to be emotion involved.

Can't just be like, yeah I wanna know EVERYTHING... Except myself...

Well then it is not everything! xD

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

I guess everything is consciousness. And so when scientists accept emotions as evidence. Then they can discover that way more easily. So rather than asking too much of science, make a bridge. By pointing towards the emotion as valid evidence and reality.
Energy in motion. E-motion. If you're gonna study everything, then there has to be emotion involved.

Can't just be like, yeah I wanna know EVERYTHING... Except myself...

Well then it is not everything! xD

Why emotion? Pure consciousness, minus anything else, is emptiness. Think deep and dreamless sleep. There is no emotion. That is the ground-stuff of what is.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Why emotion? Pure consciousness, minus anything else, is emptiness. Think deep and dreamless sleep. There is no emotion. That is the ground-stuff of what is.

Or we can take it one stage further. Advaita puts forward three states of everyday consciousness - waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep. Then there is the fourth state of Turiya, which underlies and transcends these three common states. Those who have experienced the Turiya stage of self-consciousness have reached the pure awareness of their own non-dual Self as one with everyone and everything; for them the knowledge, the knower, the known becomes one, they are the Jivanmukta.

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

If you're gonna study everything, then there has to be emotion involved.

Not necessarily. Some would regard the emotional body as unreliable and unnecessary for higher understanding. At best, the emotional body may be considered as a reflection of spiritual intuition, but unless we have mastery of the emotional body then any reflection is liable to be distorted.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

Or we can take it one stage further. Advaita puts forward three states of everyday consciousness - waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep. Then there is the fourth state of Turiya, which underlies and transcends these three common states. Those who have experienced the Turiya stage of self-consciousness have reached the pure awareness of their own non-dual Self as one with everyone and everything; for them the knowledge, the knower, the known becomes one, they are the Jivanmukta.

Yes, that is true! The fourth state of consciousness or super-consciousness. Existence, consciousness, bliss.